Muslims in Europe; caught between a rock and a hard place

[Homie]

Articles like this remind me how different the United States is. Our culture is much more accomodating, I think. At least in the major cities, there are all sorts of people doing all sorts of things, and no one cares about any of it, as long as business gets done. Note also that there really aren't homegrown radical Muslim groups in the U.S. like there are in Europe. (Our domestic terrorists are white supremacists or right-wing militia types.)

I think it shows that Freedom of Religion is really the way to go. Let people do what they want, and everything'll work out. It'll be hard for Europe, though, since the Freedom of Religion is so well established as part of what America is it's second nature.

Pannonius,

I don't know. Maybe to discuss an article that ArneHD thought was intersting?



Cleo

You're showing your ignorance here, we have freedom of religion too. Also, I find that Americans are even more anti-muslim than Europeans, which is odd because we have a ton of muslims in Europe, while in America there is only a few.

 

[skadistic]

(no one's complaining about the Irish illegal immigrants in Boston ).

Oh I do very much so. And the legal Irish will raise hell if you bring it up. Don't be fooled into thinking anti-illegal crowd is a bunch of mexican haters like so many others.

 

[Homie]

Why is it so much harder ( or seems harder) for them to do so in Europe? I meet many a muslim in the US that don't have any real problem and you can even notice them trying hard. The kid at the chicken joint calls me dude and says whats up you can tell he does it to blend in and is attempting to conform. I remember when his family first opened up the store they were so out of place and barely spoke enough english. Now its totally different.

I don't think it's harder, I think they don't try as hard. People who come to the US usually like the US and what it stands for, and so they try to assimilate, this is not the case with Europe. They come to Europe solely to make more money and do not care for what we stand for. Also, and perhaps more importantly, there are so many muslims here that they don't need to assimilate because they have their own communities. Like the mexicans in the US, which is also why the Americans don't like the mexicans. If you feel like that about the Mexicans, imagine having an equally large immigration of arab muslims who wouldn't assimilate, you guys would flip out. Also, it is very common for arab muslim immigrants to open up little restaurants, usually fast-food like places with food from their homeland, like kebabs. So your chicken example isn't endogenous to the US.

 

[skadistic]

I don't think it's harder, I think they don't try as hard. People who come to the US usually like the US and what it stands for, and so they try to assimilate, this is not the case with Europe. They come to Europe solely to make more money and do not care for what we stand for. Also, and perhaps more importantly, there are so many muslims here that they don't need to assimilate because they have their own communities. Like the mexicans in the US, which is also why the Americans don't like the mexicans. If you feel like that about the Mexicans, imagine having an equally large immigration of arab muslims who wouldn't assimilate, you guys would flip out. Also, it is very common for arab muslim immigrants to open up little restaurants, usually fast-food like places with food from their homeland, like kebabs. So your chicken example isn't endogenous to the US.

Its not that we don't like mexicans we don't like illegals. Legal mexicans are more then welcome.

I want a kebab shack and some hummus on the side or those Indian pancake things.

 

[Brighteye]

I really don't think that America has more of a culture of freedom of religion, tolerance or welcoming immigrants than Europe.
I think rather that it's the incredible pressure to conform (on everyone) that helps Muslims fit in in America. They conform because everyone is expected to.

Here we have a very individualistic culture, and multiculturalism rules, so we're all told that everyone must embrace their roots and love their own culture within our host culture.
And they do, and amazingly enough there are clashes.

 

[aronnax]

"America is a nation of Immigrants"
by some guy thats dead by now.

Brighteye is right, America is a multi-cultural soceity and its possible for a Multi cultural society to exist. Canada is doing pretty well, so Is India, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia?

Why cant Europe adopt this?

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Mexican immigrants both legal and illegal are assimilating into the US at a faster rate then any group in the history of the country. Virtually every Hispanic born in the US grows up bi-lingual often with English the dominant language and I've know many parents who teach their children English ONLY. Housing integration is swifter then any previous wave of immigration. Contrasted that with European immigration in the last century who overwhelmingly lived in ethnic neighborhoods and took a additional generation longer to reach the English proficiencies of the current wave.

 

[Brighteye]

"America is a nation of Immigrants"
by some guy thats dead by now.

Brighteye is right, America is a multi-cultural soceity and its possible for a Multi cultural society to exist. Canada is doing pretty well, so Is India, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia?

Why cant Europe adopt this?

I think you misunderstood what I said.
I said that actually America is not a multicultural society. American values permeate everything, and people are expected to conform. I have annoyed Americans when visiting the country by being shy, because people are expected to be outgoing and shyness was taken to be rude!

So even if immigrants in America nominally value their old culture more, or 'belong' to it, actually they're American in character, and conform just like all the other blacks, whites, browns and yellows.

In England, on the other hand, we have a very individualistic culture, and have had for centuries. People do their own thing, and (once apon a time) followed rigorous rules of courtesy to avoid clashes between people doing their own thing.
This has evolved into the concept of multiculturalism which says that people should continue to adhere to their old culture whilst living in our host culture.
Inevitably there are clashes when cultures demand or suggest different things, and people become angry and frustrated about this because they've been told that they can have it all.

 

[Pannonius]

Yoda Power,


pannonius,

Perhaps you're not familiar with the U.S. militia movement. The militias of today are different from the militias who fought against England. The militias of today spawn actual, anti-government terrorists like Timothy McVeigh, who murdered over 100 people in Oklahoma City.

Cleo

This is a very rare example. Most of militia members are normal citizens.
BTW. I'm sure the British called american revolutionaries "terrorists". In fact, "anti-government terrorists."

 

[Fëanor]

Canada is doing pretty well, so Is India, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia?

Why cant Europe adopt this?

Yea right, Malaysia and Singapore did so great that Singapore became independent. And India and Indonesia do better than Europe? People in India and Indonesia still kill each other on a somewhat regular basis because of Ethnicity and Religion.

 

[Pannonius]

Yea right, Malaysia and Singapore did so great that Singapore became independent. And India and Indonesia do better than Europe? People in India and Indonesia still kill each other on a somewhat regular basis because of Ethnicity and Religion.

But I'm sure it's somehow all fault of the europeans.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

In England, on the other hand, we have a very individualistic culture, and have had for centuries. People do their own thing, and (once apon a time) followed rigorous rules of courtesy to avoid clashes between people doing their own thing.
This has evolved into the concept of multiculturalism which says that people should continue to adhere to their old culture whilst living in our host culture.
Inevitably there are clashes when cultures demand or suggest different things, and people become angry and frustrated about this because they've been told that they can have it all.

I agreed with you up to this point. America is as individualistic as it gets. If you make an assload of money in the US nobody cares what your surname is. In America upper class is an income band.

In England on the other hand there's no escaping your roots. This can be very positive since we're generally more accepting of cultural outlooks that differ from our own, but it can be extremely harmful, as illustrated in the article. People feel alienated even when they've become successful doctors. British multiculturalism does not stem from individualism, quite the opposite. The language of British multiculturalism leaves little scope for individuals to come to their own settlement with society outside of the bounds of their background.

I'm passionately in favour of multiculturalism, but unless we rid ourselves once and for all of the notion that among those cultures there exists a 'them' and an 'us' we're going to continue to see alienated people who don't feel included in society. The Americans have solved it by replacing both 'them' and 'us' with 'I'. Europe isn't going to go down that road, but we've got to work something out. There's some barriers that need tearing down.

 

[Pannonius]

Only Europe needs to be multicultural. Rest of the world can keep it's culture intact. What a masochist continent we are.

 

[GinandTonic]

Cleo, not only does the UK have the same freedom of religion as the US, but the christian churches are vastly less powerful. Outside the post 9-11 aspect no-one is even interested in what religion people are. People dont talk about god, dont know if someone is an athiest, a christian or a jew - or not know if a sub-continental is an athiest, muslim, hindu or sekh.

The difficulty for an overtly observant member of any religion is that, as Blair observed "if you talk about God, people assume you are a nutter". Even the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Chief Rabbi dont mention God much.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Only Europe needs to be multicultural. Rest of the world can keep it's culture intact. What a masochist continent we are.

Massive logical failure...
Muliticultural. As in multiple cultures. The fact that I'm British doesn't make the Japanese people around me less Japanese. Stop being so paranoid. I'm glad this xenophobic country treats me a damn sight better than you would have Europe treat it's immigrants.

 

[Winner]

Massive logical failure...
Muliticultural. As in multiple cultures. The fact that I'm British doesn't make the Japanese people around me less Japanese. Stop being so paranoid. I'm glad this xenophobic country treats me a damn sight better than you would have Europe treat it's immigrants.

Massive logical failure on your side.

Japan is not a multicultural country. It might tolerate the immigrants, but it does not have an institutionalized policy of multiculturalism as a part of its legal system.

Multiculturalism as an ideology which aims to create a divided society is what I oppose.

 

[aronnax]

Yea right, Malaysia and Singapore did so great that Singapore became independent.

I dont even understand this sentence.

Are you refering to Singaporean independence from Malaysia of Political and Racial reasons?

Look, Malaysia does not have the perfect laws, granted they have laws giving Malays the upper age, Singapore left Malaysia mostly on that reason. The Racial riots were caused by idiot propagandists from both sides. However, even with the flaws in Malaysia, I see Three major ethnic groups with three different religions and three different cultures living together without as much of the racism as that of Europe. I dont see any major riots over race or religion or telling the other to "get out of my homeland". I dont see them finding it difficult to swallow someone elses culture. But I remenber reading an article on a English Town that protested agaisnt turning an old unused run-down church into a mosque for its muslim community. The church has not been used for years, the muslims need a proper place to pray. and the reason for not letting the church be converted is "Its destroying our history".

India and Indonesia, while do still have their dirty spills is a remarkable achievement in a multicultural society. You have to be somewhat impressed at the fact India has managed to string together a nation with 24 recongnized official languages, stopped each of its 70-something major ethnic groups from seceding from each other and carve a solid nation where the Punjabis dont even raise an eyebrown at that Tamil man that walked into store to buy a carton of eggs. Same with Indonesia. The Caste System is however a whole new dicussion which is based on Social ranking, not race.

But Europeans have always been very nationalistic of their country's. I cant help it after centuries of breeding of learning not to trust foreigners stuck on to them.

 

[Pannonius]

Massive logical failure...
Muliticultural. As in multiple cultures. The fact that I'm British doesn't make the Japanese people around me less Japanese. Stop being so paranoid. I'm glad this xenophobic country treats me a damn sight better than you would have Europe treat it's immigrants.

There is a place for only one culture in Japan. The rest are tolerated.
And how are Europeans treated in their countries?

 

[innonimatu]

I dont even understand this sentence.

Yes, you truly do not understand. Nationalism is widespread across the world. And where it is weaker it is often replaced by other forms of identity that can become even more dangerous - can I mention what's happening in Kenya now?

The short-term danger I see in multiculturalism is of it providing a good breeding ground for violence, exploited by unscrupulous leaders. A sufficiently "institutionalized" society will manage to prevent that kind of thing getting out of hand, but still risks some violence. On the whole the risk in Europe is low, and in fact there have been no racial or religions riots here in recent history. Even the famous Paris riots (which only damaged property) were not motivated by race, but by economic and social class differences. Some sporadic gang violence may be organizing along vaguely "ethnic" lines (or what people the people involved believe are ethnic lines) but tis is also not really relevant.

The real danged would be falling into a vicious cycle where some people got discriminated for being "different", leading to resentment, leading to more people who shared identity traits withe the discriminated to affirm an identity different from, or even opposed to, the mainstream one, leading to more discrimination... What starts with individual problems over social identity then becomes a large-scale social problem involved opposing communities. The fear of multiculturalism causing social unrest thus becomes a serf-fulfilling prophecy, trough the reaction against it .

Veils are rather common. Head scarfs are very common. As for prayer rooms you won't find many. If a muslim needs to pray he can do it in the break room. At my highschool they used the teachers lounge. You won't find many religious 'extras' at the typical American work place.

I never got why a big deal was made over the wearing of veils in some european countries. It probably wouldn't have become an "issue" if it hadn't received attention, and new generations might slowly even abandon it. Now they instead cling to it. If americans dealt with the "problem" of religion in the workplace by ignoring it, they probably did the right thing: that way it never became a problem!

Some europeans, however, would also claim the same: we don't see the any problem, provided muslims don't expect different treatment; they do, therefore they are the ones causing the problem. I really don't know about this, I've never had a chance to watch this kind of issue happening.

 

[Mirc]

India and Indonesia, while do still have their dirty spills is a remarkable achievement in a multicultural society.

Are you really serious?