"Must Have" Wonders?

Great Wall becoming a source of Great Spy points really made me sad... Time was I could have Great Wall, Pyramids, and Hanging Gardens in my capitol, then I knew I had the rest of the game in my pocket--Any wonder I wanted, eventually a Great Engineer would pop up.... Funny thing, in Warlords none of those were essential, in fact the effects they give are all relatively minor (Barbarians aren't as scary as I used to think, and I can live easily enough without Pyramids, and Hanging Garden? Pfft...) but the GPP... Oh, the wonderful GPP...
 
As others have said, there are no 'must have' wonders, as you can do well without them, though they're all nice to have!

Something posters forget to mention, though, is that map size has a lot to do with their value. If you decide to build a wonder on a small map, you're devoting a large amount of your total civilization's resources to build 1 thing. On a huge map, you're devoting much less of your civilization's resources (because you have many more cities, but you're still only devoting 1 city's output to the wonder). So the opportunity cost of every wonder goes down as the size of the map increases.

Conversely, most wonders affect every city in your civilization, or every city on your continent, so the benefit of most wonders is proportionally the same as you increase the size of your map. Thus, with most wonders, you're spending less of your total output for the same benefits when your map size increases!

As an example, let's consider the 'average' civ size the number of cities a civilization needs to build 3 cathedrals (a key threshold for culture victories). Then an 'average' civilization on small maps is 6 cities, and on huge maps it's 12 cities. Let's consider the Spiral Minaret. To do the math with real numbers, we'll say your 'average' city is producing 20 hammers per turn and has a monastery and church. We'll also say you've already built 3 cathedrals.

So, on a small map, your 6 cities are producing 120 hammers per turn. So the 550 hammers to produce the Spiral Minaret represent 4.58 turns of output of your entire civilization. On a large map, your 12 cities are producing 240 hammers per turn, so the Spiral Minaret represents 2.29 turns of output of your entire civilization. It's opportunity cost is cut in half!

But what about the benefits? On a small map, you have 15 religious buildings, so you get 30 gold per turn before multipliers. That's 5 gold per city per turn. On a large map, you have 27 religious buildings, so that's 54 gold per turn before multipliers. That comes out to 4.5 gold per turn. (Note, the only reason they're not exact is because you can have more cathedrals per city on small maps...if you were to take a wonder like the Hanging Gardens, the 2 numbers would be equal).

So on small maps, you're devoting 4.58 turns of production to get 5 gold per turn (before multipliers) per city, while on huge maps, you're devoting 2.29 turns of production to get 4.5 gold per turn (before multipliers) per city. It's a much better deal on bigger maps!

Another way to look at it is this. You're spending 550 total hammers for 30 raw gold per turn on small maps. You're spending the same 550 total hammers for 54 raw gold per turn on huge maps.

This reasoning works with most wonders. I like to play on huge maps, and don't generally launch offensive wars, so I tend to try and build wonders in 1 city, occasionally using a 2nd or 3rd when there are multiple ones I want. On a huge map, I still have plenty of cities to focus on military units and developing my economy. When I play smaller maps (which is rare, because I find I simply don't enjoy it as much) I have to remind myself to only go for only an occasional wonder, because your economy or military production will suffer.

It's worth pointing out that there are a few wonders that increase in power on smaller maps. Any wonder that focuses it's affects on 1 city is going to have a bigger effect on smaller maps because you have fewer cities. Most of these wonders are national wonders, however. World Wonders that only affect one city include the Temple of Artemis and the Great Library. Now, both of those are nice to have on large maps (the Great Library is actually great to have on large maps), but they're even nicer to have on small maps, because the benefits are better! I also think Great People are slightly stronger the smaller map you play on, so I believe the Parthenon gives slightly stronger benefits on smaller maps

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Anyway, the above is just a remark to remember when you evaluate what people say on this thread. Few people mention what map size they play at when they respond to threads like this, despite the fact that its an important fact to consider.

As I said, I generally play on huge maps, and the Wonders that have the best benefits for me are probably Pyramids, Parthenon, Apostolic Palace, Christo Redentor, 3 Gorges Dam, and the Space Elevator.

Pyramids- early representation is really nice, and the Great Engineer GP points are nice. I get this maybe half my games
Parthenon- more Great people are really nice, but I usually don't focus on the tech, so I don't get it too often.
Apostolic Palace-can be mostly a non-factor in the game, but even then it gives you 2-6 hammers per city before multipliers!. Other times it can drastically affect the outcome of the game, affecting wars and trading relationships. Again, I don't generally focus on the tech, so I don't get it too often, but its one of the few early wonders I'll use a Great Engineer if one pops out around the time I get the tech. (I generally settle early GE's to increase my chance of getting more late game wonders, even though I might miss out on some of the big early ones).
Christo Redentor-very very powerful. And the AI seems to prioritize it last among the 3 wonders that come with it's tech, so I think I've gotten it each of the BTS games I've played so far that have gone that long!
3 Gorges Dam- If your cities are focused on one continent, it gives you less polluting energy to a lot of cities. Not something I'd probably recommend on smaller maps
Space Elevator- going for space victories, it gives you a nice boost. On a large map, you can just about build every spaceship part simultaneously in a separate city. So it's worthwhile to rush to the 2 tech requirements for this wonder before going back to get all the other techs needed to build your spaceships parts. Remember, you can't use great engineers to hurry spaceship parts or the internet, but you can use your great engineers to rush this! So once the corporations are founded and the space race starts, this is what your great engineers should be saved for (it takes 2 great engineers, and even then you still have to add more hammers). Once it's built, use other spare great people to start a golden age if you can to rush through your space ship production.
 
I don't go out especially to get any Wonders as such, I play almost everything on random so every game I have no idea what is out there.

One Wonder I did like was the Big Stone Heads can't remeber the name but it was built in a city on a small finger of land with 1 plains and 1 hill tile with 1 fish.

Turned out to be a great little city once the BSH were completed along with the lighthouse grew steadily with no requirement for any improvement and had good trade and production.
 
One Wonder I did like was the Big Stone Heads can't remeber the name but it was built in a city on a small finger of land with 1 plains and 1 hill tile with 1 fish.

Thats a national wonder called Moai Statues, and can always be built ;)

For me when i play Victoria with my usual stragey (which i have a hard time getting rid of), i aim to chop stonehenge asap to get the free monument in all my cities. Saves time so you can build more important stuff there earlier.

Then i usually try to build the pyramids in my production city, but mostly because of the Engineer points it generates, i'll manage without them.

Then i research towards Theology, and start building The Oracle as soon as there is only one prereq tech left before i can research it (theology that is). Time it so the research completes a turn or two before The Oracle, and whoop, pick Theology for free when The Oracle is completed. This will always make me found Christianity, and i switch to Theocracy immidately.

Usually after building those two, i tend to be more flexible and not dependant on any other wonders, but i always try to get The Hanging Gardens, Mausoleum of Maussollos, Taj Mahal and The Pentagon. These are wonders i can pop a great engineer to complete.

If i can get any other wonders, its just a bonus, but i wont do any special efforts to get them :)
 
The only 'must have' wonder in my games is the Pyramids; and if I don't build it then I will crush whoever did build it in order to capture it.

Running representation early in a game is a real eye opener.

Another wonder I like to get is the sistine chapel if I am playing with a non creative(?) leader, this gives each specialist 2 culture points.
 
No priorities for Rock n' Roll, Broadway, and Hollywood?

I think these take precidence over every other late game wonder...except for maybe Three Gorges Dam.

With corporations, the ability to dole out your hit musicals, songs, and movies to get more resources for your corporations is just absolute bank in every regard. 18 extra resources for your corporations.

Which other wonders to build depends on how the game goes. The pyramids are nice to have, but I rarely get them, without stone the Pyramids is a ******** venture. I'd rather get axemen and take care of a rowdy neighbor who'll be a problem if I build the Pyramids. I don't even really consider the Oracle a must have anymore, unless I can lightbulb metal casting. To me, the best advantage for Stonehenge is simply getting it wicked early, founding a religion, and getting your Great Prophet extra early and get the extra gold from the shrine.

The Great Library is a must to me, this is probably the only wonder I will go after regardless of circumstance.

I am also a big fan of the Spiral Minarette as well. It can really allow you to afford further expansion, or increase the research bar depending on your priorities. A capital with a religious shrine, SM, market, and a bank, is just great.
 
Great Wall is a MUST HAVE for teamer games on multiplayer.

why?

Increased chance of Great general alone is just awesome.

And you first great person is likely to be a great spy. Perfect for scouting enemy territory. i think it's a sin for those who waste it on something like "infilttrate enmy city"
 
I like The 'Mids, Oracle and Great Library, AP is powerful but the only game I had it, I was only able to spread my faith to one AI, against my will, and I was at war with him the entire game, not much to do there...

Later on, I dunno, I have a idiosyncracy about not researching Divine Right as the first person. Seriously, I can't make myself do it. It's a nice tech with a religion and 3 wonders, but... I... Simply... can't!
I hate, hate, hate that tech, dunno why, so I often miss the Minaret.
I tend to grab atleast one of the "hit" wonders, and in BtS I find the Space elevator rather useless...
 
The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have
 
The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have

Stonehenge is now to astronomy not calendar.
 
You are currently in the Civ4 - Beyond The Sword forum, my friend.

Touché

I know, but Warlords is a dead forum and General is usually quiet, its not like I cant enjoy the Poland conversation and I have been in this forum for months, I know most of the features of BTS
 
ankor wat for GPfarm otherwise i can live without all wonders

because 11 turns on the hanging gardens
is 11 knights less u hav
 
Pyramids (representation i think it should come ealier)
Stonehenge (free culture)
Effieltower (char)

pre Bts
sistine chapel
I've just tried oracle sling shot and now owning the game.
 
Hanging gardens and Notre Dame you can always find a way for all the other things but in the late game it's always the question about health and happiness. Then the three resource wonders rock and roll etc are quite good and the AI pays very well for them.

Another one I don't feel pleased to leave out is the Oracle by using it to get Metal Casting then building the colossus plus the AI is quite generous in it's trades for it.
 
The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have

I think having the creative trait defeats the whole purpose of having stonehenge..... What's the point? Unless creative/charismatic which no leader is AFAIK for the happiness bonus....

Hagia Sophia? 500/750/1500 hammers! That is 9-12 workers! Why not just build workers instead. Even with stone.... Could build units instead too. The only time I ever really built it was when I had a GE to burn and it was about the only wonder available for a long time since the others had been built.
 
I've recently discovered the Moai Statues... they seem ridiculously powerful to me. I think it should be a world wonder, but there you go. I basically find myself a nice peninsula city with loads of coast, and a few sea food resources, build the statues and add library and collossus if I can and I've a great city. In my first 3 games playing BTS, I've ended up moving my capitol to there for the beureacracy boost because it's just so much better than my other cities.

Anyway, as for world wonders, I quite like the Great Library. I tend towards a central economy too often but the GL gives me an easy great scientist for academy without much effort on my part. :)
 
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