Mutual P-pact & War

[Hellpig]

I play a game as China (warlord, large map) where my only border is towards the Japanese. The japanese in their turn also borders Russia and Germany, both those nations much weaker than mine. And here's three different situations that leads to the one thing; Japan declares war with me;

a) Japan offers me mutual protections-pact I decline
b) Japan offers me mutual protections-pact I accept
c) I offer Japan mutual protections-pact, they accept

2-3 turns later - there's a bloody war going on. I just find it strange that they attack despite our pact but perhaps this isn't something unusuall?

 

[petey]

I've never seen a MPP stop the AI from attacking me or any of the other civs. I think that considering a civ's allies isn't part of the equation when they decide whether or not to attack.

If you're going for a peacful route to victory, or you're behind militarily, NEVER sign one of these - 9 times out of 10, it'll get you pulled into a war you don't want.

The thing that they are good for is for when you're about to attack someone, sign them with civs that are on other borders of his empire. That way, his defence is split up amongst everyone and you can roll over him with less resistance.

Be careful about signing a peace treaty quickly with the civ you are attacking, though, as that will annoy the people you signed on to help kill him.

 

[jimmytrick]

MPP are not very good things. I find it hilarious that Firaxis in making Civ3 tried to close the loopholes that we used to dominate (exploit) the AI and then put this one in.

Example: You are on one continent, the most powerful AI is on another. You don't have to worry about facing it, just make an MPP with it and then declare war on one of its neighbors (or two or three). The AI will go to war and switch to Communism and then, because of the draft penalties it will starve itself to death. Even if it cleans out its whole continent it will be forever crippled due to the length of the draft penalty.

And it costs little or nothing to get the MPP.

This whole thing needs to be reworked.

 

[NY Hoya]

the only time i've seen a MPP prevent war with the AI is if you also have a ROP agreement, and even that doesn't work all the time. The AI seems to have more respect for honoring ROPs with the 1.17 patch.

I agree that the whole MPP concept needs to be reworked. It is somewhat easy to exploit, and sometimes the way it works doesn't make sense.

Current game I am the Americans. The Babs, Japanese and a couple of others are at war with Greece. Babs come to me and offer MPP, which I accept along with a bunch of gold per turn. I, of course , have to declare war on the Greeks. No problem there. Then i sign a MPP with the Romans with whom I already had a ROP and generally good relations. The Romans never honor their part of the MPP by attacking Greece, but several turns later something happened which really frustrated me. In one turn, the Romans sign a military alliance with Greece against Babylon. They declare war on Babylon. Then, they decide to declare war on the Greeks. And then my advisor comes up and tells me they attacked my brothers Babylon so i have to declare war on Rome.

This looks curiously like some sort of AI cheat. I have no problem with Rome deciding they didn't like the Babs for whatever reason, but why would they apparently agree to an alliance with Greece during Greece's turn only to then declare war on the Greeks during their own? There should be some sort of multiple civ MPP so that I can have two, safe allies.

As it is, my reputation has taken a big hit because I broke my MPP and ROP with the Romans when my MPP with babylon kicked in. That's ok though, I still managed to get every other civ to agree to an alliance against Rome save the Greeks, who were already at war with them

 

[petey]

The way I think MPPs work (someone tell me if I'm wrong) is that if you have one with 2 civs and those 2 civs go to war with each other, the MPP kicks in with the civ that is defending and the MPP with the attacking civ is cancelled.

This bothers me. I think in those situations, you should get the option to decide which side you will support in the war, rather than suddenly being at war with an ally who may be giving you resources/luxuries/gold per turn. Then you could use a little bit of strategy rather than having no choice in the matter.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[NY Hoya]

I think that's the way it works Petey. I agree, at the very least we should have the option to choose which MPP to honor. I would prefer an option for conditional MPPs, i.e., I'll sign one with you if you agree not to attack my other ally.

It's a shame. There is so much more depth that they could have added to the diplomatic aspect of the game....

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

the one thing I keep harping about that need changing, and that makes MPP stupid in the game, is the fact that the attacker gets help when counterattacked outside the territory of the attacked... Like I get attacked - nothing happenes. Next turn I fight back, all on my territory - nothing happenes. Next turn he take on of my cities - and if I try to take it back his MPPs kick in?????? *#?/*!%$*#!

 

[NY Hoya]

not sure i understand what you mean killer, could you clarify?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by NY Hoya
not sure i understand what you mean killer, could you clarify?

If you are attacked, the opponents (attackers) MPP doesn`t kick in - logical! BUT if you counterattack there`s a difference: if the troops you attack are on your territory it`s OK - you may defend yourself, after all. But if they are in neutral or enemy territory your action against them counts as a hostile act - and promptly your opponents MPPs kick in.

In essence that means if he takes a town from you it becomes his territora - and if you try to take it back the MPP kick in.

It`s a bit like: Turkey invades Syria. The Syrians fight back - no problemo. Now the Turkish forces take Aleppo. The Syrians counterattack to get it back - and NATO joins Turkey`s righteous defence struggle????????

 

[NY Hoya]

understood. damn that sucks. I guess I've never had a situation like that happen to me. yet another "feature" that needs tweaking i guess.

 

[Selous]

it does seem the AI is too dumb to use them properly :s ... cant wait till multiplayer!!!! then they will ROCK!!! (infact the entire game will start to rock)

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by Selous
it does seem the AI is too dumb to use them properly :s ... cant wait till multiplayer!!!! then they will ROCK!!! (infact the entire game will start to rock)

except for the fact that you'll only be able to finish two MP games by the time Civ4 comes out

 

[Daaraa]

The only time I ever sign an MPPact is if I want to go to war. In my current game I was friends with the Americans and the Aztecs. I wanted to fight the Americans. The Aztecs and the Americans had been at war for a while. I had been helping the Aztecs. I signed an MPPact with the Aztecs. I got pulled in and my citizens didn't get into an uproar as I was helping my weaker friends the poor Aztecs. War weariness problem solved for a little while.

 

[FM_Freyland]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
MPP are not very good things. I find it hilarious that Firaxis in making Civ3 tried to close the loopholes that we used to dominate (exploit) the AI and then put this one in.

Example: You are on one continent, the most powerful AI is on another. You don't have to worry about facing it, just make an MPP with it and then declare war on one of its neighbors (or two or three). The AI will go to war and switch to Communism and then, because of the draft penalties it will starve itself to death. Even if it cleans out its whole continent it will be forever crippled due to the length of the draft penalty.

And it costs little or nothing to get the MPP.

This whole thing needs to be reworked.

Jimmy, I agree entirely with you that the system leaves room for a big exploit. However....


Patient Jimmy: "Doc, it really really hurts when I do this"

Doctor Freyland: "Oh, well then don't do that!"



Doc Jonathan

 

[jimmytrick]

Patient Jimmy: "Doc, I want to get laid but my wife keeps turning me down and it hurts my feelings."

Doctor Freyland: "Oh, well then don't do that!"

Patient Jimmy: "But Doc, what is the point of having a wife if you never get laid?"

Doctor Freyland: "Jimmy, I don't know what your problem is, your wife never turns me down"

Patient Jimmy: "Huh?"

Doctor Freyland: "Maybe you should read the manual moron!"

 

[FM_Freyland]

It's bad for business for me to call patients morons!