My 1.187 Challenge - Classical Civs

[AgedOne]

Hi all. I said I would probably start a new thread so I could ask for help and ideas - and report progress - on my attempts with the Classical Civs. So here we go....


The first one is going to be Greece.
We have already had a bit of discussion at the end of my earlier threads (I've omitted the posts about auto hut-popping, barb units flipping and the chances of an early dead Babylon):

...
One thing to keep in mind if you do Greece next is that you no longer start with metal casting, so you can't get machinery with the Oracle. I usually use the Oracle for metal casting now while researching aesthetics (metal casting's more expensive).

I'm really looking forward for your Greece challange, I've played it so many times and it still doesn't bore me. Thi's my favourite Classical Civ
Babylon destroyed before you reach it? That's strange, never happend to me. Charriot flipping to you at the start is rather a rarity I'd say. A goodie hut glitch also happend to me, so I'm not surprised.
I won Greece's UHC three times so I'm willing to discuss any strategy with you

Playing Greece I have had great success settling on the marble and spending first turn to switch to slavery. The one turn is more than made up for by access to one extra seafood and saving the worker turns to build the quarry.
You'll be swimming in GP so teching is a non-issue, bulb whatever is beneficial, save "useless" people for golden ages and settle the rest. Get stone from either Babylon or the Egyptians, either will do really and both make great cottage centres, Egypt is easier if Bab has those infernal bowmen.

Marble city with Moai Statues = automatic win

Right. So where do we begin?
I have played a few starts, just to get an idea of what goes on in the early game, and what I'm thinking (as just one strategy) goes like this:

• Settle Athenai and Byzantion
• Load phalanxes on galley and take out Babylon and Hierousalem
• Meantime, lie in wait with 3rd phalanx on galley and attack Egypt
• Settle our copper city (what's the best location?)
• Aim for 5 good productive cities before it all starts getting messy
• Build Oracle and take Metal Casting
• Research the Aesthetics - Literature branch of the tech tree
• Build wonders!
• Defend against all comers!
• Research to Optics
• Circumnavigate

This may be too simplistic, or may be doomed by being too passive after the initial attacking phase. I don't know until I try.

The biggest problems I can foresee are:

• Losing too many units to complete my initial city captures
• Failing to set up copper city in time to strengthen my army
• Attacks from Rome, Persia and barbarians (European and Arabian)
• Plague

I will give this strategy a whirl this morning, but I would invite any advice and criticism

 

[carzingan]

OK, so here's what I was doing:

1. Settle Athenai kai Byzantion
2. Priesthood -> Masonry are the first techs
3. In Athenai work on marble tile so it speeds up you working boat construction
4. In Byzantion, work fish or clam tile, also build working boat.
5. Hop two phalanxes on the boat and ship them AFAP to Babilu and destroy them. Hint: In my latest games, they already had bowmen when I came to their capital, but in my earlier games, they only had warriors, so it was way easier to conquer them.
6. I wouldn't bother conquering Egypt, they have nothing that Babylon doesn't have.
7. Destroy Shushan, then, using your city attack upgrades, rush to Sur and also destroy them.
8. In the meantime, it would be good that Byzantion construct settler, one or two (you may get one from the goodie hut, which is excellent, you doesn't waste your time on building it), and settle Epidamnos (one tile W of pigs, one tile SE of copper), and if you have second settler, found Ankyra in Anatolia (one tile E of marble) - those two cities should be good in production, especially Epidamnos, which can build wonders PRETTY fast.
9. Get Aesthetics, and other techs from trading, then rush to construction and build Great Wall, which is A MUST, before hords of barbarians pop up in Eastern Europe.
10. With conquering Jerusalem, you should be able to stop Arabia from spreading to Africa, but it may cost you a war with them, so having pikemen is good to defend against their Camel Archers.
11. Then of course beeline to Optics and circumnavigate. I was able to do it in 1300s, shortly before Turks pop up in Anatolia.

 

[Jusos2108]

Some hints:

2. The first techs should be Masonry-> Priesthood, in that order
6. Conquer Egypt, only the capital though. Diaspolis Megalis can defend itself against the barbs and it will provide you incense, gold, horses (and copper, in case the romans give you hard time)
8. There is really no need to build other cities except Epidamnos, in fact you don't even need it. Settlers can only be popped from goody huts when playing viceroy.
10. Spearmen are enough against the Arabs. Remember to keep your main army in Babylon (or galleys) when Arabs spawn, that will reduce the number of flipping troops. Reinforce Hierousalem when needed. After ~10 turns Arabs will be ready to make peace.
XX. Bulb expensive circumnavigation techs with Great People, which you will have plenty.

 

[AgedOne]

OK, so here's what I was doing:

1. Settle Athenai kai Byzantion
2. Priesthood -> Masonry are the first techs
3. In Athenai work on marble tile so it speeds up you working boat construction
4. In Byzantion, work fish or clam tile, also build working boat.
5. Hop two phalanxes on the boat and ship them AFAP to Babilu and destroy them. Hint: In my latest games, they already had bowmen when I came to their capital, but in my earlier games, they only had warriors, so it was way easier to conquer them.
6. I wouldn't bother conquering Egypt, they have nothing that Babylon doesn't have.
7. Destroy Shushan, then, using your city attack upgrades, rush to Sur and also destroy them.
8. In the meantime, it would be good that Byzantion construct settler, one or two (you may get one from the goodie hut, which is excellent, you doesn't waste your time on building it), and settle Epidamnos (one tile W of pigs, one tile SE of copper), and if you have second settler, found Ankyra in Anatolia (one tile E of marble) - those two cities should be good in production, especially Epidamnos, which can build wonders PRETTY fast.
9. Get Aesthetics, and other techs from trading, then rush to construction and build Great Wall, which is A MUST, before hords of barbarians pop up in Eastern Europe.
10. With conquering Jerusalem, you should be able to stop Arabia from spreading to Africa, but it may cost you a war with them, so having pikemen is good to defend against their Camel Archers.
11. Then of course beeline to Optics and circumnavigate. I was able to do it in 1300s, shortly before Turks pop up in Anatolia.

Thanks for your thoughts!
I currently have a game under way. I have taken a break at around turn 140 to check in here.
I have followed most of your points pretty closely (even before I read them ). The only exceptions in the early game were:
I went Masonry => Priesthood, but hey.
I did wipe Egypt, though I didn't bother keeping either of their cities.

I found Babylon did have archers, unfortunately, but since I had an additonal chariot (that barb unit flip hapeened again) I just had enough to take Babylon with the loss of one Phalanx. Then went on and claimed Jerusalem. The other independent cities had been taken by Babylon, and Shush went Independent with the fall of Babylonia. I left that and Persia rose out of them later.

Both Rome and Persia appeared already at war with me, and although both made peace after a time, they both declared again. It seems this is going to be a constant on-off thing. The Rome one has been mostly a phoney war with no bloodshed, but the Persian battles for Babylon have taken on epic proportions!

Your point number 9 !!! The Great Wall. I really hadn't thought of that, but you are right - it is going to make a huge difference if I can get it. I'll have to check if it is still achievable in time, or whether it is already too late for me in this game.

Where I left it, I had achieved the wonders VC on turn 116

and am now researching Philosophy to get the second VC (I hope).

I probably haven't placed my remaining cities in quite the ideal places:

I was a bit careless with placing Raphia - which should have been Alexandria, and maybe Ikanion too.
I was happy to pop a Gt Merchant which has allowed me back up to 100% research.
On the other hand, I have been careless enough to leave 2 cities with unhappiness - which I will have to sort out.

My main worries at the moment are the same ones I spoke of earlier:
Attack from Rome, Persia and barbarians.
Plague - which must be coming up fairly soon.

 

[AgedOne]

Some hints:

2. The first techs should be Masonry-> Priesthood, in that order
6. Conquer Egypt, only the capital though. Diaspolis Megalis can defend itself against the barbs and it will provide you incense, gold, horses (and copper, in case the romans give you hard time)
8. There is really no need to build other cities except Epidamnos, in fact you don't even need it. Settlers can only be popped from goody huts when playing viceroy.
10. Spearmen are enough against the Arabs. Remember to keep your main army in Babylon (or galleys) when Arabs spawn, that will reduce the number of flipping troops. Reinforce Hierousalem when needed. After ~10 turns Arabs will be ready to make peace.
XX. Bulb expensive circumnavigation techs with Great People, which you will have plenty.

I wonder whether I have already built too many cities. We shall see shortly.

Good point on 10. I will make preparations. When do the Arabs appear? Is it around turn 180?

Point XX. Yes. I'll try. This is a skill that I am particularly poor at - working out which techs will be popped by which Gt people, given that you already have certain other techs. I know. I should refer to the spreadsheets that are available! I just find them difficult to get my head around, and often calculate things wrong, even when I am using them.

 

[carzingan]

^^
The second pic: this is more or less what it looks when I play it, apart from the Anatolian city, which I settle one tile N from your location.
Yea, I was wrong in point 10, I meant spearmen, not pikemen
I don't know how it goes on Monarch level, but on Viceroy, Rome starts at war with you, but sometimes they don't. But after some 10 or 15 turns they declare on you, but as you said, this generally is phoney war, they do nothing. Sometimes happens that they attack you, once they even conquered my Byzantion. You should be able to make peace with them after some time, and they should never again declare on you. But it may be different on Monarch level.

 

[Norton II]

Looks great so far. One thing you might consider, though, is trying to get a great scientist to bulb philosophy instead of researching it (make sure you already have meditiation) and researching compass instead. If you get the scientist before turn 181 (600 AD), you'll only partially bulb it, but when that turn comes, tech costs drop, and you should only have one turn left on it (make sure to switch research to philiosophy on that turn, of course).

 

[AgedOne]

Well, that was all over surprisingly quickly, in my first serious attempt! In a way, it left me wanting more, so I may come back to it later.

I got the third Victory Condition in 1180AD.

Following on from my half-time reports above, I had to live through some dodgy times. The worst was when the plague spread through to my middle-eastern cities from Persia, and at the same time I was assaulted by barbarian camel-archers from the Arabian peninsula. What do you do!? I normally run my units into the countryside to recover, but that would have meant leaving my cities undefended. I tried a bit of both, and did lose Hierousalem when my weakened spearmen failed to hold out. Overall, I was lucky that the disease didn't spread into mainland Europe, and that it didn't last too long. At least Persia were also badly affected, so they couldn't think of attacking me.

I survived to reach Philosophy on turn 172, achieving the second Victory Condition.


A few turns of building spearmen later, Saladin appeared. At first he seemed relatively friendly - to me at least. He had arrived at war with Persia and Spain. This didn't last, and as expected we were soon at war.
Here I showed a bit of my inexperience. Raphia wanted to flip (I didn't have Hierousalem any more) and I wasn't sure how to respond. I didn't want to allow the flip, as I was going to need that cut-through into the Persian Gulf for my circumnavigation. So I rejected the flip! But that meant instant war, and also several turns of messages about my forces defecting. This was weird, as I never actually lost a unit . Scared me though.
I sat there with a fair number of spearmen in both Babylon and Raphia. Had to defend a few attacks from Arab camels and swords, but finally he was willing to talk, and allowed peace without any payment on either side.

After it all calmed down, I spent my time maximising research to get me through to Optics. I did a quick detour to Construction (thanks, carzingan!) and built the Gt Wall. So I didn't have to worry about barbs any more - but it was so late in the game that I had more to fear from the major Civs. It reduced the number of things for me to think about, and that was good.

Rome disintegrated. They had become my friend by then, and it was sad to lose them. All of the modern European nations had arrived, and I did a bit of touring to get introduced to them all. Vikings were at war with them on, so I joined in. I also declared on Spain, in order to keep Arabia happy - but I didn't feel so good about doing that.

I managed to get quite a number of Gt People, as you have been telling me would happen. Mostly Gt Prophets, and I got a bit weary of trying to find uses for them (saved some for Golden Ages). Another Gt Merchant was a timely relief from any economic woes, and I got a Gt Engineer and a Gt Scientist, but just at the wrong times to be able to use them for useful tech bulbing. (I remember earlier on using a Gt Scientist to bulb Mathematics, which was helpful towards Construction)

Finally got to Optics. Upgraded 4 triremes to caravels and sent them all off in opposite directions. (Four rather than two was so that I wouldn't suffer severe frustration when the barbs kill one only a few turns from victory)

Wrapped around the world, and got my victory condition in 1180AD.


Now I'll have to pick another Classical Civ for the rest of the weekend!

 

[carzingan]

^^
Ouch, this razed Jerusalem hurts my eyes.
I don't know what that city on Sinai mountain was for? Even if you were at peace with Arabs, they probably won't open borders with you, so there is no point in sending Caravels trough Red Sea. I rather send one Caravel to Central America, and get to the other side trough some Indian city, that alows you to do it, once you have open borders with them, and it cuts short your time of traveling on the globe. You should also get a map from China, encouraging them with some tech.

 

[AgedOne]

^^
Ouch, this razed Jerusalem hurts my eyes.

Yes. That was painful - especially as I had the Temple of Solomon in there and it was helping my economy a fair bit.

I don't know what that city on Sinai mountain was for?

Raphia. All part of my plan

Even if you were at peace with Arabs, they probably won't open borders with you, so there is no point in sending Caravels trough Red Sea. I rather send one Caravel to Central America, and get to the other side trough some Indian city, that alows you to do it, once you have open borders with them, and it cuts short your time of traveling on the globe. You should also get a map from China, encouraging them with some tech.

The caravels can ignore open borders, so it was a reasonable way of getting to the pacific eastbound.

China got wiped in this game! But I did send a spy through (again ignoring open borders) who met the Japanese - though by this time my eastbound caravels had just about overtaken the spy.

I didn't think it took too long to circumnavigate. The main part is crossing the Pacific, and those caravels just zoom across the open oceans!

Out of interest, what's your earliest Greek victory on Monarch? I'd like to know how this compares to others who have achieved it. (I hear that it has been done in BC - but with a lot of luck)

 

[carzingan]

^^
I haven't touched Monarch yet and I am not sure if I ever will. My best result was 1350 I think, but I wasn't rushing to Optics that much, having been researching other techs that weren't that essential.
Have you tried going trough that city in CA or just went all around SA?
I've heard of people doing Greece's UHV in 100-300s AD.

 

[corovanrobber]

I've heard of people doing Greece's UHV in 100-300s AD.

Not possible anymore without luck on huts since Rhye removed Metal Casing from Greece starting tech list.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Greece: 220BC (blizzrd)
This from 1.186 (already without metal casting).

 

[Jusos2108]

Check this thread for the earliest UHVs with the latest patch.

 

[carzingan]

I've just had a quick attempt at Greek, and I mean quick, because I failed very fast, getting some thing out of control

1. So I had this very good starting position - Galley next to Athens and Chariot in Anatolia. This also meant goodie hut glitch


2.Hattusas still there, I rushed my forces in direction of Babylon, to conquer it.


3. On the road, Hattusas was razed by Babylonians, I declared on them and captured their capital - they had only one bowman and one warrior, so it was a piece of cake. But I lost one of my Phalanxes, as the injured one stayed on the tile N of Babilu, and there were Independents coming from the mountains, and beat to death easily.


4. My third Phalanx made his way to Babilu. I checked the neighborhood and Shush was already destroyed, as was Sur. So, I thought I'd send my two Phalanxes to try to get Jerusalem, and Babilu has just made a warrior, so I had a defense. I moved Phalanxes to J, they had only one archer defending, so I thought, this odds are on my side. I failed, those two were not able to beat one archer. In the same time, two new independent units came from the NE and beat my warrior in Babilu.


Because of that fightings in Middle East, I completely forgot to take care of Athens' tiles, and after two turns lost The Oracle
This was painful

 

[AgedOne]

^^
I haven't touched Monarch yet and I am not sure if I ever will. My best result was 1350 I think, but I wasn't rushing to Optics that much, having been researching other techs that weren't that essential.
Have you tried going trough that city in CA or just went all around SA?

I sent 2 caravels straight down the Red Sea through that city in Egypt (Raphia) that you see by Mt Sinai.

I've heard of people doing Greece's UHV in 100-300s AD.

Not possible anymore without luck on huts since Rhye removed Metal Casing from Greece starting tech list.

Greece: 220BC (blizzrd)
This from 1.186 (already without metal casting).

Check this thread for the earliest UHVs with the latest patch.

That's strange. I can see that blizzrd's Greek victory is recorded as 220BC, but I can't find the game report. In the links to the earlier threads, I can find blizzrd's 25BC win on 1.186, which is amazing enough! Yes, blizzrd was doing this without being able to get Machinery from the Oracle (1.186). He admits to getting some great luck with popping Aesthetics out of a hut, but that doesn't take anything away from the skill of the performance!

 

[AgedOne]

I've just had a quick attempt at Greek, and I mean quick, because I failed very fast, getting some thing out of control

1. So I had this very good starting position - Galley next to Athens and Chariot in Anatolia. This also meant goodie hut glitch


2.Hattusas still there, I rushed my forces in direction of Babylon, to conquer it.


3. On the road, Hattusas was razed by Babylonians, I declared on them and captured their capital - they had only one bowman and one warrior, so it was a piece of cake. But I lost one of my Phalanxes, as the injured one stayed on the tile N of Babilu, and there were Independents coming from the mountains, and beat to death easily.


4. My third Phalanx made his way to Babilu. I checked the neighborhood and Shush was already destroyed, as was Sur. So, I thought I'd send my two Phalanxes to try to get Jerusalem, and Babilu has just made a warrior, so I had a defense. I moved Phalanxes to J, they had only one archer defending, so I thought, this odds are on my side. I failed, those two were not able to beat one archer. In the same time, two new independent units came from the NE and beat my warrior in Babilu.


Because of that fightings in Middle East, I completely forgot to take care of Athens' tiles, and after two turns lost The Oracle
This was painful

Ouuuch!
The beginning of this game is just about identical to the one I played. Chariot. Hut glitch. Hattusas. Funny coincidence.
I felt I was walking along a cliff-edge as I was taking Babylon, Jerusalem. Even after I decided to go after the Egyptians. I felt that at any moment if I lost one unit, certainly if I lost two, my game would be wrecked and everything would come unravelled.
Looks like my luck held, while you got the <ahem> poor end of the stick.

It's very familiar how a military conflict going wrong can take your concentration away from something different - wonder building for example - going on elsewhere.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Here's blizzrd on his 220BC Greek UHV:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8326591&postcount=72

 

[AgedOne]

In keeping with the Classical Civs theme, following the Greeks we should have the Romans. I imagine the Roman Scenario has been done by everybody - but not by me yet. So, I'll have a look at it and give it a crack tomorrow.

Initial thoughts:
In a similar way to the Greeks having to dispose of a couple of victims first without taking damaging losses, the Romans need to get rid of Greece and Carthage before they become a menace. In the quick looks that I have had so far, it appears that Carthage can damage you before you even move!! I arrived at my first turn to find I'd had a galley sunk by a Carthaginian trireme! Well, that game isn't going any further. Also, if they start at war with you and have triremes, then they are going to be far from a pushover.

I like the way any cities in your home territory will flip to you within a couple of turns. I didn't like the look of Greece already having settled in the heel of Italy, but needn't have worried.

Barbarians are evidently going to be a problem for Rome - and why not? So perhaps we need the Great Wall (Hadrian's) although we can't have that very early - until we have Construction.

The victory conditions:
1) 5 x Barracks, Aqueducts, Amphitheatres by turn 154 (we start at turn 90)
2) Control the 'Western Roman Empire' in turn 172
3) Never lose a city to barbs by 1000AD

I can see the first being most achieveable. Possible problems with the latter two.
What exactly must I do to achieve VC 2? Reading some of the python scripts, it would seem that I have to have:
2 cities in Spain
3 cities in France
1 city in England (gulp!)
2 cities in Carthage

Now, that looks like a tall order, requiring a good feel for the timing (which I won't have yet) of settling/capturing these cities and defending them from barbarians.

Any tips, anyone?

 

[killerkebab]

Do not build settlers for France - Lugdunum (Lyon), Burdigala (Bordeaux) and Lutetia (Paris) will spawn as empty celtic cities that you can simply walk into.

Same with Carthage, you can smash that place apart with legions.

As for my 5x buildings requirements, I used Rome, Milan, Athens, a city on the heel of Italy (if you can get Moai statues here, then its a good place) and Constantinopolis.

Barbs are no problem at all if you can get the Great Wall - then you simply need to defend Africa using some spearmen and city walls.