My dream of a Spring 2014 Balance Patch

Regarding making XCOM units harder to get, I think XCOM and the GDR are meant to be 'double win' mechanics. Meaning you probably only get to them if you're already winning so they help you win faster. Thus they're supposed to be unbalanced.
 
GENERAL CHANGES:

- Great Engineers, Merchants, and Scientists no longer delay each other from being born.

Don't agree with this, I feel like there should be a decision as to which GP you are going to pursue otherwise it's a simple case of stacking as many specialist slots as possible. Maybe you should be allowed 1 GP of each type before it adds to the counters, not sure though. Part of the problem is that Merchants tend to be very weak - they should give Customs House a boost & maybe provide a permanent boost to Citystate diplomacy if you do the trade mission...


COMBAT BALANCE


- Lancers now upgrade into Landships.
I feel like Lancers would be better to upgrade to cavalry

- Archer, Composite Bowman, and Crossbow units now have 25% weakness to Mounted units.
Definitely agree here

- Catapults, Trebuchets, and Cannons now use their +200% bonus against cities on defense against City Ranged Attacks, enabling them to survive these attacks for longer.
Not bad but it might be a bit overkill

- XCOM squad no longer available for normal production. May only be built through the XCOM Initiative (see World Congress changes for more).

I've only used XCOM very infrequently normally they're to help you finish mopping up any stragglers on the map, you're suggestion is good but it probably would be better to fit with a new Space Age of futuristic technology (Civ 5 really doesn't add anything in the information age to make it immersive - with nothing new left to do it feels anticlimatic & buy that stage I usually want the game to end quickly

CIVILIZATION UPDATES:

ROME:
- Roman Legion now starts with Cover (1) Promotion.
- Roman Ballista now starts with Cover (1) Promotion.
Probably a bit too strong, I'd let them access their Cover 1 promotion from 15 exp instead of 45exp. The intention is that Roman soldiers are better trained and can access a wider variety of promotions earlier. One other thing I'd like is for Legions to be able to do a 1 tile moderate range attack if garrisoned in a Fort- just to give them a bit more utility.


BYZANTIUM:
- Cataphract replaces the Knight, with a corresponding strength increase.
- Unique Ability now includes a free Great Prophet at Theology.
- The Bonus Belief granted by their Unique Ability may be any Belief previously chosen in another religion, thereby reducing the urgency with which Byzantine players need to found a religion.

By beloved Byzantium is definitely one Civ the devs messed up here...

I feel like Chivalry is a bit late for Cataphract though (Byzantium was at it's peak in the 6th century, by the late middle-ages it was little more than a citystate in decline) Maybe it could be unlocked somewhere in between Horseback Riding & Chivalry maybe at Ironworking or Civil Service (Sortof like the Denmark Beserker)
I would also give it some extra utility so it can fight Pikemen (probably a 1 move set-up for a ranged attack)
Not sure about the Free Great Prophet - It feels like it steps on Maya's UA. My preference for boosting the UA would be to let the Capital :c5capital: produce 2 extra buildings.
1) Grand Basilica - unlocked in the :c5capital: when you reach the Classical Age.
Cost: 80 :c5production: 1 :c5gold: per turn
Yields: 2 :c5faith: Has 1 specialist slot for a Priest (when worked produces an additional 2 :c5faith: and 2 :c5gold: per turn. Once you build this you generate a once off 100 :c5faith: to ensure you get your Pantheon & a kick-start towards a religon.
2) Hippodrome (unlocked in :c5capital: at Construction)
cost 200 :c5production: 5 :c5gold: per turn
Yields 1 :c5happy: 1 :c5culture: per every 2 cities in the Empire. Produces 2 horses

My justification - Byzantium was the freaking capital of the Western World for 1000 years! It should have some bonus buildings to make it the glorious city it was! Caution though- these bonus buildings are not free, they cost hammers & upkeep so it requires a wise leader to balance citybuilding & economic management.



DENMARK:
- Berserkers now retain the +1 movement promotion on upgrade.
- Denmark now gains double gold from pillaging Improvements.
- Norwegian Ski Infantry now have the Drill 1 promotion.

Good suggestions but I'd also allow Berserkers to move 2 tiles into the ocean from a shore tile (that way they can cross straights and small oceans).
Adjust UA to give melee units gold after attacking a city (like the Privateer)
Embarked units have +1 sight





SOCIAL POLICY CHANGES:


Social Policy changes look good, but they've been talked to death so I wont say anymore

RELIGION

- New Pantheons added:
- Fen Lore: +2 Faith and +1 Food per Lake and Marsh tile.
- Ceremonial Vestments: +1 Faith and Culture per Silk and Cotton.
- Animal Sacrifice: +2 Faith per Whales and Ivory. +1 Faith per Horses, Deer, Cattle, and Sheep.​

Fen Lore would be crazy with Podders so I'm not sure about that one, Honestly I think Marsh needs a peat resource to make these tiles a bit better
Animal Sacrifice sounds interesting but I'm cautious about having Faith pantheons to every resource on the map, it ends up making Pantheons too generic


I'd suggest a tweak to 'Monument to the God's: +15% production to ancient & classical wonders. +1 faith from ancient & classical wonders.
Makes it better for a strategy focused on wonders

One of my own: God of Judgement - Each Great General provides +2 faith/turn between the ancient-medieval age.



But on the whole some good and well thought out suggestions
 
- Cover Promotions now apply correctly to units that do not receive Rough Terrain defense bonuses. This was affecting Seige units and Mounted units in particular.
* The bonus is applied, but not shown on the combat preview.

IMO:

GREAT and/or original ideas:
-----------------------------
- Players may now request for an AI Civilization to gift them a Missionary of their Religion. Likeliness of this happening will depend on overall relations, plus the Religious flavor of the civilization in question.
- Amount of ice at the poles reduced. A clear path around each continent's pole should be possible.
- Hoplites gain the Phalanx promotion, which increases combat strength by 10% for every adjacent unit with a Phalanx promotion.
- Policy Tree-Specific Wonders are not unlocked until the player has taken at least one of the Policies in the tree.
- Professional Army now reduces the chances that a Building in a conquered City will be destroyed by 50%, in addition to its usual effects.
- Adopting Piety grants +1 Culture per Shrine and Temple, in addition to reducing the Production cost of these buildings by 50%.
- Tree Opener now grants an additional Trade Route.
- Navigation School now grants all Embarked units +2 speed, in addition to the bonuses to Great Admiral speed and generation.
- Adopting all Policies in Exploration permits Archaeologists to be purchased with Faith, in addition to Great Admirals.
- Secularism reduced to +1 Science per Specialist.
- Fine Arts bonus Culture increased to 100% of Excess Happiness.
- Religious Settlements increased to +25% Tile Acquisition Rate.

Overpowered:
-------------
- Military Caste now grants +1 Culture and +1 Happiness for every Military Unit a player owns.
 
Fist balance mod I've seen that I would actually play. I like almost everything about it. I think I'm the only person who likes helicopters...

Only things I object to is the hoplite's promo carrying over and siege getting 200% defense against cities. It should obsolete at rifleman, maybe muskets, and siege are supposed to be vulnerable and disposable.
 
Legions shouldn't have Cover I, in the Classical era, they are already as overpowered in defense.

I mean, 3 extra strength, can build a fort and a road? Why would they need Cover I? Fortifying a Legion on a fort is going to be pretty hard to kill anyway.

I can understand the Balista getting cover obviously due to balance, but not the Legion. I have found them very difficult to kill even with Composite bowmen or Chariot archers, they effectively come obsolete when Crossbowmen come around imo.
 
Legions shouldn't have Cover I, in the Classical era, they are already as overpowered in defense.

I mean, 3 extra strength, can build a fort and a road? Why would they need Cover I? Fortifying a Legion on a fort is going to be pretty hard to kill anyway.

I can understand the Balista getting cover obviously due to balance, but not the Legion. I have found them very difficult to kill even with Composite bowmen or Chariot archers, they effectively come obsolete when Crossbowmen come around imo.

The idea is to give legion a promotion to carry over else there is no point building them if you arnt going to war. We can always nerf its combat strength to 15.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
Love the Byz changes. Free GP at Technology makes sense and is the best way to fix them IMO. Also the "pick any belief" which I myself added to Piety in my thread. 2 faith/1 food to marshes will make Holland OP IMO.

Cataphracts should be slower but more heavily armoured than knights (as is historically accurate). Imo the Byz don't need a boat UU, they were never a super maritime nation like Carthage or England. They would be better represented by a UB. I'd go for Iconography Workshop : replaces Garden. Doesn't require a river. Adds +4 faith and 2 culture in addition to the GP generation bonus.

Personally I'd like to see a notification of "civ x has started building wander y" like we had in Alpha Centauri. I mean, it's fairly obvious that someone is building the pyramids or Notre Dame, it's not a project you can hide until finished. And they take thousands or hundreds of years to complete historically. It's really needed when playing Deity, as well as a list of already completed wonders and whom completed them (don't want to mod my game for that or to keep a word file that I update with the notifications)

Further changes that are very much required IMO:

Production costs for Ancient/Classical/Medieval units are reduced by 20%/15%/10% to allow for early wars to actually happen.

Bse city bombardment strength reduced by 30%. A new building is added: crenellations. It requires walls to be built and adds 20% city defence and 15% reduced damage by ranged units (not siege units however)

Warmonger penalties for capturing city states reduced. Warmonger penalty for capturing up to 3 non-capital cities OR the enemy capital reduced. Further reduction if the enemy faction is the aggressor.

Faith ruins can spawn at turn 15 and later (was 19 and later previously)

Increased chance to get a culture ruin if civ is yet to unlock any social policy tree.

Great Admiral: can now be spent in a coastal city to construct the Admiralty building for free. It is a building that adds a 20% increase to sea trade route range, adds 2 gold per sea trade route and 15% bonus to building ships.

Great General: can now be spent in any city. Builds the Elite Guard building, which provides 10 xp to newly trained units.

England: UU now doublest the Great Admiral combat bonus in addition to granting one extra spy and 2 sea movement range.

Pikemen now have the Pike Wall ability. When fortified, it gives them +100 vs. mounted units but -30% versus ranged units.

When a unit is upgraded to a different unit type and its promotions are no longer valid, the player may re-assign the promotions in question.

National College science bonus down to 25% from 50%. Oxford now has a 25% science bonus instead.
 
My reply, borrowed from the PolyCast thread itself:

RE: Great Person separation on the counters.
My thinking was that Great Merchants as they stand right now are SO inferior to Engineers and Scientists, that it's actually a penalty to spawn them (unless you're Venice). To speak to your talk of Choosing between an Engineer or a Scientist, I can't say that's ever my first thought in allocating my specialists: generally it's more "I need science" and then "I need Production!" and the GP shows up later as a nice bonus.

Regarding the demotion from "Great People" to "People"... I already feel this is the case with the addition of GWAM, as well as Faith-buying even more people, etc.


RE: Cover Promotions. It's somewhat dubious on where exactly the Cover promotions are working. To the best of my knowledge, any unit with a Ranged strength is not benefiting from them as Cover applies to base combat strength, but Ranged units use their Ranged combat strength to defend, regardless of what's actually higher. This is a bug and needs a fixin'.


RE: Natural Wonders spawning somewhere impossible to work. I didn't know this was a longstanding tradition in civ games. Shall we leave it? :lol:


RE: Lancers. I wanted to change two problems here. The first is that Lancers flat-out suck at their jobs at 25 Strength. It's not actually stronger than Cav even with Formation, and it's pretty much on par with Muskets... except that it's on a later tech and costs a Strategic resource. They come out too late and in the wrong direction to be useful against Knights except as mop-up of a dated unit. Also, about that Formation promotion? It doesn't work against some units - namely Keshiks (unless this has been patched when I wasn't looking).


RE: Siege vs. Cities: ain't no kill like overkill! My first thought is of all the times that my hard-built catapult got reduced to splinters in a single hit by the city... and this Catapult is supposed to be good against cities? Directly tinkering with Ranged strengths is a dangerous game, so I preferred to tinker with the unique-to-siege promotion.

While 200% is excessive, I went for a nice big number to make siege units truly terrifying when they show up. Let's face it, they're pretty bad in open-field fighting with weaker attacks and inability to shoot & scoot. I dislike the situation that I see so often, where ONE archer in a city, plus one or two behind can hold nigh-forever. That Siege unit needs to be the 'oh hell' button to force someone to either come out and deal with it, or die.


RE: Anti-tank going to Ranged units
After firing, they'll still be stuck in place without a Blitz promotion. It's also a representation of alternate uses of these weapons in wars. Anti-Tank rifles work pretty well as sniper rifles for anti-materiel uses, high-velocity Anti-Tank Guns were useful for smashing hardened fortifications, and attack helicopters are good anti-everything provided they're not hit back.

Also, this is a very personal gripe, but I despise seeing the animation of antitank/antiaircraft guns being rolled forward as melee units. Both are items you hide desperately in a bush somewhere to keep from being spotted, not trundle up face-first into an infantry platoon.


RE: Oligarchy
: I had a feeling that cutting down on Tradition's core mechanics was undeserved, and that taking apart the "tall growth" was unfair. Tinkering with Tradition too much might just make Liberty better at Tradition's job instead, and that's the thing I wanted to avoid most. Instead I wanted to come at it from another angle and open the door a little wider to just walking in and killing the 4-city, mass-science, beaker-spamming player. Oligarchy adds a lot of early strength to cities, making these very infrastructure-heavy plays very safe. Also, once it starts stacking with things like Himeji castle & that obnoxious pantheon, it reaches the level that you can almost hold armies with little more than an Archer or two.


RE: Meritocracy: this is meant to balance out the lack of Gold in those new cities. Pre-BNW new cities could pay off the cost of those new roads with new rivers - now they seem like more of a financial drain trying to get new Buildings up, while the city is too small to spare Food to work a Gold/Production resource. Maybe Meritocracy isn't the right place, but I think something like this might be the right effect.


RE: Honor:

- Gold per Kill as a finisher is too late for this to matter much. By the time you're at least six policies, the gold from a kill (7-8 early game?)... it's pretty negligible. Compare the amount to what it can buy; you've got to stack the bodies awfully deep to buy more than a single starter building. The Barbarians bonuses typically expire somewhere between Medieval and Renaissance. Doubling it up later might be strong, but as I said at the beginning, better too much than too little.

- Happiness/Culture from Units: every single one was absolutely overkill. My thoughts were that Maintenance would bankrupt any player trying to abuse the hell out of it, but looking deeper into the exact formulas of Unit Maintenance, a better balance might be struck around 1/2 or 1/3 that effect. It needs to be somewhat useful on a small army a player can afford while not being game-breaking with straight unit spam. Listening to your ideas, I think it might be fair to exempt Scouts from working with this too - I forgot about them, but they'd be a low production for higher reward unit available deep into the game.

The other mitigating factor is what happens when someone kills your units. Someone DOW'ing and eating your scout swarm could both give them some uncomfortable amounts of experience (uncomfortable for YOU, that is), and pitch you deep into frown-town and bereft of Culture.

Ultimately, it might be best to keep the Happiness/Unit ratio higher while putting a hard cap on the max output, possibly tying it to 2-3 per City in empire, or by forbidding it from taking you above a certain smile count. (So your troops won't let you become UNHAPPY, but they'll keep you at zero or something).


Re: Scholasticism
- City-states often generate approximately :c5science:buggerall for themselves, although I get that it's better the higher the difficulty. Last game I was on Emperor for (my preferred for fun factor), and it was generating somewhere around ~10% of my empire's total... after I'd allied every CS on the map. Given that the Rationalism opener does that, and stacks with other things, and is a lot shallower in the tree... eh. It could use a second look at, is what I'm driving for here.


Re: Commerce

- Mercantilism already gives Science to those buildings. My net increase is +1 on the Bank and +2 on the Stock Exchange. I don't think this is too much, given that by the time you're reaching Stock Exchanges +2 beakers isn't much, even multiplied by Universities and/or Labs.

- The second free Trade route lacked creativity I suppose. Some alternate effect could be better, or the Finisher could remain as-is.


Re: Exploration

- "Merchant Marine": I had assumed that Cargo ships would keep their pathing through other units, and they're the last unit targeted in the stack. In hindsight, this isn't quite right; maybe if the ship still stacked differently, but automatically attacks if it runs into an enemy? It's better than the automatic death they suffer right now. My intent here is that a big sprawly naval empire will run Cargo ships all over the damn place, probably farther than they can really control effectively (as their range doubles, the area to patrol effectively squares.) Protecting them from random barbarian Galleys and Trireme attacks in the Modern era would be nice.

- Navigation School: the more of a 'naval' empire you are, the more likely you need to move civilians or troops around Embarked. Being able to do this faster would be nice, versus the sometimes 15-20 turn embarked voyages you'll see lategame. That England could get to LUDICROUS SPEED is... meh. Hooray for England? Also, this policy is a massive low point of the tree; I think it needed something.

- Buying Archaeologists with Faith: the cost could be tweaked to whatever it needs to be to make this not too crazy. Buying Admirals with Faith... like you said, that basically does not happen. There's some theme with Archaeology given Hidden Sites and the Louvre; I thought this fit.

Re: Rationalism
- Libraries. Oops. That was supposed to be Universities.

- I changed the opener around so it's not totally free science (10% for first SP in the tree always felt strong to me), but I can be convinced otherwise. At least the Scientists require you to be working that kind of Specialist is my thought.


Anyways, thanks for the review. There's no more divisive topic in any community than game balance. I'm not bothered by the quick "OP" on some of the points - I know the pacing of the show demands that you move on: even at that pace it was an hour across two shows. There's just not time for in-depth back and forth across everything.
 
What if there'd be a policy/tenet that would add +15% chance of success to coup a city-state, bringing maximum chance to 100%?
 
What if there'd be a policy/tenet that would add +15% chance of success to coup a city-state, bringing maximum chance to 100%?

Gonna be honest with you, I straight-up hate the coup mechanic. Adding that would be even worse. A special agent has an 85% success chance at a surprising difference in influence. This would mean that anyone within a big range of influence who has a special agent can systematically take all your city-states.
 
Love the Byz changes. Free GP at Technology makes sense and is the best way to fix them IMO. Also the "pick any belief" which I myself added to Piety in my thread. 2 faith/1 food to marshes will make Holland OP IMO.

Cataphracts should be slower but more heavily armoured than knights (as is historically accurate). Imo the Byz don't need a boat UU, they were never a super maritime nation like Carthage or England. They would be better represented by a UB. I'd go for Iconography Workshop : replaces Garden. Doesn't require a river. Adds +4 faith and 2 culture in addition to the GP generation bonus.

There was a thread on the general discussion board about Byzantium a couple months back and that suggestion of a free GP at Theology was raised. The trouble with it is that it still won't guarantee AI Theodora a religion unless she beelines Theology. And I don't think the AI is smart enough to do that.
Any fix for Byzantium really needs to ensure that the AI and the player can both repeatedly get a religion competitively.

I do like you're suggestion of the Iconography Workshop - Icons are a fundamental part of the Byzantine religious society. But eh don't take Dromons away or Cataphracts I like both & I think any boost to Byzantium should be through the UA.
 
Gonna be honest with you, I straight-up hate the coup mechanic. Adding that would be even worse. A special agent has an 85% success chance at a surprising difference in influence. This would mean that anyone within a big range of influence who has a special agent can systematically take all your city-states.

Ah, okay then. Those are very good points and I take my suggestion back.
 
There was a thread on the general discussion board about Byzantium a couple months back and that suggestion of a free GP at Theology was raised. The trouble with it is that it still won't guarantee AI Theodora a religion unless she beelines Theology. And I don't think the AI is smart enough to do that.
Any fix for Byzantium really needs to ensure that the AI and the player can both repeatedly get a religion competitively.

I do like you're suggestion of the Iconography Workshop - Icons are a fundamental part of the Byzantine religious society. But eh don't take Dromons away or Cataphracts I like both & I think any boost to Byzantium should be through the UA.

I've always thought an option for a religion to splinter into sects would be great. So if you had a Great Prophet and were in a city following a religion you could found a Sect based on that religion. It would basically be like a new religion with a new Holy City except the Pantheon/Follower beliefs wouldn't change. But you'd select a new Founder belief either from the remaining options or from a new list.

That way civs who fail to found still have an option to have their own religion, but in theory it wouldn't be as good as a real religion because you haven't selected the "Best" follower/Pantheon beliefs yourself.

If you give Byzantium a free GP you almost assuredly need to change their bonus belief to only happen on Enhancing rather than Founding.
 
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