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My obsession with Horse Archers

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Gwynnja, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Immortals replace the chariot just like Egypt, but they are indeed sick.

    I also like HA's a lot on defense ----> the AI underbuilds spears/pikes on offense, and virtually everything else in its offensive stack is vulnerable for a long time unless they have ivory.
     
  2. ppciv4

    ppciv4 Warlord

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    HAs can be deleted from the game, no use at all.
    even for movement,woodsman2 axe rules.
    pity for the Mongals. 
     
  3. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    r u weird
     
  4. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    horse archers are awesome, at least up to emperor.
     
  5. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    My favorite HAs are Numidian Cavalry. IMO the extra chance of withdrawal is key. More of them survive, leading to more of all the desired outcomes, i.e. promotions, GG's, victories etc.
     
  6. framserv

    framserv Chieftain

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    Everyone seems to love HA's but I'm not so sure. Playing on Emperor last night I popped HBR from a hut. This is going to be easy I thought... Wrong. My stack of HA's were pasted by defensive swords and even archers.

    In retrospect attacking a protective Civ (churchill) was not the best idea but he was running away with the game in terms of techs and power. I will try again using flanking promos instead of combat and pillaging first.
     
  7. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Those who argue against Horse Archers haven't really tried it.

    It takes a bit more skill, but basically the skills you need are Economy wise.
    Since you have the potential to conquer much more in less time, your economy can suffer.
    You need better timing, more troop micro, better trade skills, etc to get the most out of this.

    Any ways. Horse Archers done Right, is awesome.
    I've said it before but I'll say it again, my favorite way to wage war is with mounted units.
    I even love the offspring of the horse, the Helicopter. :p (with it's buddy the Paratrooper)
     
  8. Airefuego

    Airefuego King

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    I haven't seen your game, so my comments could be way off track. :D However possibly you didn't rush fast or early enough...?

    I tend to find an early rush (using axes or HAs or equivalent UU) on Emperor is only likely to succeed if it's your goal from almost the start of the game - basically you focus on it single mindedly as soon as you discover your juicy close rival. This includes tech choices, merciless whips and chops, etc.

    If you have the awesome luck to pop HBR from a hut and you are going full-on for the rush, your opponent is unlikely to have iron working for long, if at all, by the time you smite him. Shouldn't have swords. However if you decided to rush only WHEN you popped HBR, you may well have already delayed too long.
     
  9. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    I agree. I've even had many games where I only build one settler in the BC in order to hook up horses or to bridge some distance between me and the nearest AI. The rest of the cities are acquired through conquest.

    Speed is of the essence. During the Rex stage, the AI doesn't defend cities well. Often times there's only two archers (on Monarch level where I play). And my chariots/horse archers keep getting tougher with victories and promotions.

    The best HA military strategy is to hit where the AI is weakest. Eventually you make your way to the capitol. It's not good to completely surround it. Give the AI a route to send out archers and settlers. Theyre easy to catch and kill. Sometimes the AI will leave the capitol city weaker and you can take it with a good stack of horse archers.

    In my games, that first AI capitol is usually the point where a religion is founded and a possible means for recovering the economy. I also build a ton of cottages everywhere. Mounted units are also very good at killing anything that tries to pillage your cottages.
     
  10. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I would rather take out the AI capital first and effectively cripple it's production then raze the orbiting cities.
     
  11. Airefuego

    Airefuego King

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    I second this. It also means that if you overreach and you don't have enough troops to finish off all the enemy's cities in one wave, you can take a temporary peace treaty secure in the knowledge that you have the main prize (the capital). He will be easy to finish off once you have regrouped.

    But if you start with the small crappy cities but leave him with his capital, he can really harden up (not to mention resettle all the cities you have razed) and your war will be a lot more costly.
     
  12. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    ...and with mounted you'll need them. Ohhh, will you need them. ;-)
     
  13. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Dont HA have a disadvantage of some sort when attacking cities or is it just the Mongol UU? I seem to remember something like that ... not sure though.

    I tried out HA when i was still learning most of the basics, did not have much sucsess and i do not build a single unit of HA's since then in any of my games.

    Maybe i'll give it a try, since most of you seem to rate it so highly there must be something to it.
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Warlords introduced a 10% city attack penalty for them. There is no penalty in BTS.
     
  15. mi6agent

    mi6agent Warlord

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    i think BTS should have - 15% penalty for attacking cities and introduced +10% attack and + 10% withdraw chance for attack @ flat terrain. That's more realistic and more fun :D
     
  16. kcmarkwell

    kcmarkwell Chieftain

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    if you are not having success with HA rushes, you simply are just not building enough of them

    if you simply beeline HA with any civ and build a crapload of them and attack nearest neighbor, you will rarely ever lose, key is dont build 5 or 6, build 20 or 30
     
  17. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    I think 2-move warfare needs a slightly different approach than 1-move warfare:

    - pillaging metals is both less of a delay and more beneficial
    - obviously spies are more important (though not necessary, especially if it would slow down your start)
    - it's both more important to start early (dug-in enemies are more painful) and less important to assemble the whole army before you start
    - taking the capital early is much harder (since its large defender counts beg for siege) and maybe a little less necessary, since their reinforcement convoys are easier to hit... in fact the more the better in a way.

    Also, it's weird that in flanking-based warfare, your army *is* your siege.
     
  18. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I thought I would love Numidian Cavalry, until I realized that they are base str 5... wtf?
    I had more trouble with them than I do with regular HAs. AI don't build enough spears to be worth the melee bonus & HAs do well enough against axes. I guess the bonus towards swordsman is good.

    The free flanking 1 means with stable Flanking1/2 Combat 1. Which means str 5.5 with flanking 2

    Regular HA with stable is str 6 with flanking 2... so no boost there.

    I guess I'm confused by everyones love of the NC. They start off with weaker str... do you guys go combat 1/shock instead of flanking 2 combat 1? I can see that being pretty good.

    Personally, I'll take combat 2 or flanking 2 regular HAs over NCs. But everyone has their own thing.
     
  19. Hsinchu

    Hsinchu Prince

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    Flanking II HAs are the best BC rushable without metals. If you can snap up Theology vis a vis Oracle early game to pull down 6exp HAs out of the gate in Vanilla (With a barracks) they are twice the power of archers, are immune to first strikes, and have a phat withdrawal chance. If your opponent isn't creative, there is little to no city bonus and they usually don't work on walls while they expand (this posting ignores higher difficulty handicaps). I can literally take 3 HAs and have a greater side of the coin toss chance of taking a Pop2 enemy city with 1-2 unpromoted archers/warriors on the DoW turn on Prince and below. At higher difficulties, early HAs are the best anti-barbarians as they serve as excellent Axeman offset with shock and the Barbs don't build spearman.

    In fact, one of my favorite past plays was getting HAs out while Raging Barbs was checked. As the only civilization with improvements still standing, I felt pretty confident.
     
  20. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Barbs totally build spearmen. I don't even use them and I know this.

    Does anyone play vanilla anymore?
     

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