My one last Deity game

[noontide]

Hi guys,

It has been a while since I last posted here. I've been playing Civ 4 on and off since I last came here for advices. I think I progressed slowly, and now I can win more Immortal games than I lose, and generally i felt comfortable on that level. I've been watching Lain's video on Youtube too. So lately having a lot of free time at home I started to try Deity again. I think it's safe to say I've never felt so defeated in my life. I did all the things I read about, whip, not working unimproved tiles, priortizing food in early game etc. But it's clear mentally I'm just not at that level, no matter how hard I try. It's like that saying your best is not good enough. I even cheese a little by playing Inca or Rome.

This is my latest game. I came really close, managed to get Pyramid, Parthenon and Great Library on early game, fought two tough wars against Rome and took two of his largest cities, traded with AI regularly. But in the end it's still all in vain. I popped Liberty and beelined Steel. When I got Steel none of the AI even had Education, I thought this time I had a real shot. Went to war with Rome again, he pulled the AP vote "Stop the war against Rome" bullfeathers twice, I defied resolution and my economy imploded.

I don't understand how the AIs catch up in tech and military power so fast in war. I have a stack of doom, set up a meat grinder and I think I depleted Rome's army reserve after a few turns. Went on to take two of his large cities, including capital, sudden he had Rifle and send another 30 riflemen over out of nowhere, meanwhile Isabella DoW on me, after I gifting her every turn. Tried the "Beg for 1 gold" trick but she didn't take the bait. I'm so frustrated, after 820 hours of play time I think I just have to admit I'm just cant get good. Anyway these are the save files at different stages, if you guys have time, maybe take a look and let me know where it went wrong? Thanks.

Noo

 

[sampsa]

Well, opening the 400BC, the main problems are the same as before. You are not working unimproved tiles? Yes you are, a lot of them and you don't chop at all. Of course, having killed off an AI and seriously damaged another one the game is not going badly. However, with better play the situation would be much better than this. I think you are overvaluing wonders and undervaluing cities, growth and working good tiles (cottages?).

 

[Anysense]

1300AD is not a bad date for Steel, although you could have improved it by ~5 turns by using Lib. There is no point in working 21 and 3 tiles at this point - just hire more scientists and shave off a few more turns. Chopping all those forest into failgold would have been another huge boost (roughly 2000).

Any reason you still have not got Currency? Open borders? BTW, you don't need open borders to send spies into their territory. If you did a bit of scouting, you would have known that Augustus had 28 rifles, 11 knights, 11 catapults and some other stuff in Mediolanum alone and at least 4-6 rifles in every other city. Probably, over 100 rifles in total; a very formidable enemy and one step from Steel too.

The key to keeping up with Deity AI in research is clever tech trading, unless you dominate in HoF-like style.

Edit: there are some other major slips like not using any religious civics and building Oxford when you are obviously not going for space. If you forget such things as getting Currency and adopting civics then you probably should play a bit slower and develop a routine to check whether you forgot something; 3 hours is not exactly hasty but I would probably spend about 10 hours playing this game to this point.

 

[noontide]

1300AD is not a bad date for Steel, although you could have improved it by ~5 turns by using Lib. There is no point in working 21 and 3 tiles at this point - just hire more scientists and shave off a few more turns. Chopping all those forest into failgold would have been another huge boost (roughly 2000).

Any reason you still have not got Currency? Open borders? BTW, you don't need open borders to send spies into their territory. If you did a bit of scouting, you would have known that Augustus had 28 rifles, 11 knights, 11 catapults and some other stuff in Mediolanum alone and at least 4-6 rifles in every other city. Probably, over 100 rifles in total; a very formidable enemy and one step from Steel too.

The key to keeping up with Deity AI in research is clever tech trading, unless you dominate in HoF-like style.

Thanks. Once Rome DoW on me I figure it's pretty much over. To be honest even if I were to beat this game I know I'm nowhere near a Deity player, I caught extreme lucky breaks throughout the game still I fell short, that's what's so frustrating about it, that it's as if it's not possible. I think my weakest part is diplomacy, I gave free stuff to Rome and Spain like it's X'mas, had the same religion with everyone, still they are annoyed with me. Bribed Rome twice to stop war against Shaka so it wouldn't swallow it. Just not sure whatelse I should do.

 

[noontide]

1300AD is not a bad date for Steel, although you could have improved it by ~5 turns by using Lib. There is no point in working 21 and 3 tiles at this point - just hire more scientists and shave off a few more turns. Chopping all those forest into failgold would have been another huge boost (roughly 2000).

Any reason you still have not got Currency? Open borders? BTW, you don't need open borders to send spies into their territory. If you did a bit of scouting, you would have known that Augustus had 28 rifles, 11 knights, 11 catapults and some other stuff in Mediolanum alone and at least 4-6 rifles in every other city. Probably, over 100 rifles in total; a very formidable enemy and one step from Steel too.

The key to keeping up with Deity AI in research is clever tech trading, unless you dominate in HoF-like style.

Edit: there are some other major slips like not using any religious civics and building Oxford when you are obviously not going for space. If you forget such things as getting Currency and adopting civics then you probably should play a bit slower and develop a routine to check whether you forgot something; 3 hours is not exactly hasty but I would probably spend about 10 hours playing this game to this point.

Yes thanks I replayed the game and traded away Liberalism to India and Spain and got like 1000 golds, and traded currency that allowed me to build gold, which in turn let me discover Steel in 1260 instead of 1300, but foundamentally it didn't change the fact that Rome has run away with military power. How would you guys play this map? Rush Rome instead of Dutch and Celtics in the beginning? But then I'll leave a large track of land to Shaka, which i don't think would be any better...

 

[sampsa]

How would you guys play this map?

Just play better in the BCs. I don't think there is anything wrong in particular with taking out the Dutch. On pangaea, I'd mostly aim to win with cuirassiers so I'd try to find the fastest way to get there.

 

[noontide]

Just play better in the BCs. I don't think there is anything wrong in particular with taking out the Dutch. On pangaea, I'd mostly aim to win with cuirassiers so I'd try to find the fastest way to get there.

Thanks. Cuirassiers with trebuchet? The way I understand it the pivotal turning points of Civ 4 war turn around a few key siege weapons, captapult is the first wave, cannon the second and later bomber/stealth bomber, with trebuchet being more of a utility to tide you over before cannon? On deity though it's very hard for me to get catapult early enough to make a huge difference. Usually even when I get catapult first the AI had 6 or 7 cities already. I think my biggest problem is not city management even though I sometime don't have the dicipline to micromanage on a consistent basis, it's (i) trying to stay apace in tech or at least not fall too far behind and (ii) manipulate AIs with diplomacy, which, in many occassion amount to the same thing. I can usually make a dent in early medieval era but one or two AI inevitably runs away with tech/army. I watched Lain's playthroughs, understood some of his rationale and techniques in diplomacy, which is what makes me think I can give it another go. But it just doesn't translate when I play. I often save at critical junctions and replay the game over and over again to correct mistakes I made in previous plays, but more and more I feel it's not so much what I do differently this time around than randomness of AI behaviors, mostly how they war each other or not, and how they trade techs amongs themselves. And once an AI vassal another it feels like two against one and I lose heart. It's almost a stamina thing.

 

[Anysense]

Yep, replaying more than just a dozen of turns would help. Besides, the game is still winnable. The easy way is to take out Izzy and keep Augustus at pleased and go for space/diplo. You'll need Isabella as a vassal for the latter, because at least one civ has to vote for you.
More difficult way is to conquer the Romans. Just chop Taj (lucky you have so many forests), switch to police state/vassalage/slavery/theocracy and whip cannons and rifles. Perhaps, switch to nationalism for a while to draft rifles. The most tricky part is to deal with their stack of doom. Usually, just DoW and wait works but there can be complications.

 

[sampsa]

Thanks. Cuirassiers with trebuchet?

No, cuirassiers are strong enough on their own. Use spy revolts if necessary. These are typical techniques used by Lain in many of his games...

 

[noontide]

Yep, replaying more than just a dozen of turns would help. Besides, the game is still winnable. The easy way is to take out Izzy and keep Augustus at pleased and go for space/diplo. You'll need Isabella as a vassal for the latter, because at least one civ has to vote for you.
More difficult way is to conquer the Romans. Just chop Taj (lucky you have so many forests), switch to police state/vassalage/slavery/theocracy and whip cannons and rifles. Perhaps, switch to nationalism for a while to draft rifles. The most tricky part is to deal with their stack of doom. Usually, just DoW and wait works but there can be complications.

But how to keep Rome from DoW on me? He has a stack of doom just sitting there looking for the next victim, having already swallowed Shaka. In this particular save he shortly DoW on me even though I discovered Steel (probably because of that) and just overwhelmed me with knights. I already had the same religion with him and ran out of free stuff to give to him. Run his civics?

 

[Anysense]

There is still Education. Trade it for his gold and beg his map and you are safe for 10 turns.

Hired a few specialists here and there and made a few trades. Doesn't look too bad: 4 turns from Rifling (3 if you starve your cities to squeeze more beakers) and Nationalism is half-researched. Augustus's SoD is wandering around; apparently he was plotting against you and won't go after anyone else now.

 

[noontide]

There is still Education. Trade it for his gold and beg his map and you are safe for 10 turns.

Hired a few specialists here and there and made a few trades. Doesn't look too bad: 4 turns from Rifling (3 if you starve your cities to squeeze more beakers) and Nationalism is half-researched. Augustus's SoD is wandering around; apparently he was plotting against you and won't go after anyone else now.

I replayed it from my "Two Wonders" save, this time I did some trades to build up gold, optimized my research path and specialist allocation, but most importantly caught another lucky break, none of the AI was shooting for Liberalism, I was able to hold off Liberalism until I discovered chemistry, and then popped Steel with Liberalsim at 1030AD. I amassed my troops near Indian's border but should I go for Rome or Indian?

But my question is, why my results are so acceptible to AI choice? It feels like I'm just rolling the dice but each roll takes like 2 hours. Is there a better way to control/manipulate AI. Lain in his videos sometimes talks about enticing AI to go a certain route by giving them the right incentive, is there a strategy guide on that point? Thanks.

 

[Anysense]

That's certainly an improvement! You are in a very strong position now, the best way to proceed is to go all out for war; switch to police state, vassalage and slavery and whip units.

You did not chop again There may be use for those forests, though. Taj hasn't been built yet, you have a chance to chop it in Bibracte if you hurry up.

No scouting again! You can fix it by simply trading a map of the entire world now, but it would have much better not to play blindfolded.

I'd go after the strongest first. Although, having Gandhi as a teching vassal is a good alternative. You only need to secure peace with Augustus, otherwise Gandhi will bribe him against you. Either way you need Feudalism quick, which is very straightforward, just trade Monarchy now and Feudalism next turn, and you will still have GA to change civics without anarchy.

Manipulating AI is a tricky buisness, mostly because its behaviour is largely based on RNG. There is no guide on this subject as far as I know.

 

[noontide]

That's certainly an improvement! You are in a very strong position now, the best way to proceed is to go all out for war; switch to police state, vassalage and slavery and whip units.

You did not chop again There may be use for those forests, though. Taj hasn't been built yet, you have a chance to chop it in Bibracte if you hurry up.

No scouting again! You can fix it by simply trading a map of the entire world now, but it would have much better not to play blindfolded.

I'd go after the strongest first. Although, having Gandhi as a teching vassal is a good alternative. You only need to secure peace with Augustus, otherwise Gandhi will bribe him against you. Either way you need Feudalism quick, which is very straightforward, just trade Monarchy now and Feudalism next turn, and you will still have GA to change civics without anarchy.

Manipulating AI is a tricky buisness, mostly because its behaviour is largely based on RNG. There is no guide on this subject as far as I know.

1515 Pretty much wiped out Rome but somehow he refuses to capitulate. My problem now is India is running away with technology, he built Pentagon and Statute of Liberty too, has cannons and infantries so I can't really war him even though i probably have the numbers.

What's the best route now? Should I go for Sharka and then Spain, or should I focus on growing my populations trying to catch up on techs? My economy suffered a lot during the war as I had to defy resolution to keep the war going. Thanks.

 

[rah]

Two notes. I have taken down civs that have cannons and infantry using cannons and rifles. You're smarter than the AI.
Pay attention to when votes are coming up. If you take a cease fire the turn before, you can avoid the resolution to stop the war.
Restart war next turn. Place units in conquered city so you don't have to transverse their entire territory again.

 

[Anysense]

What's the best route now?

Replay this turnset using Rah's advice. It is almost never worth it to defy resolutions - too much damage. On the other hand, another DoW is only -1 diplo with some civs, quite irrelevant when you are about to conquer them and don't care for long-term diplomacy anymore.

Spread the AP religion to all your cities. This is easy because you have monasteries - no need for OR.

Edit: it would be better if you posted more frequently, say, every 15-20 turns, rather than play on until you are at a complete loss what to do next.

 

[noontide]

Replay this turnset using Rah's advice. It is almost never worth it to defy resolutions - too much damage. On the other hand, another DoW is only -1 diplo with some civs, quite irrelevant when you are about to conquer them and don't care for long-term diplomacy anymore.

Spread the AP religion to all your cities. This is easy because you have monasteries - no need for OR.

Edit: it would be better if you posted more frequently, say, every 15-20 turns, rather than play on until you are at a complete loss what to do next.

That's clever, I never thought of that, thanks!

Here is the situation in the 1810 save, I wiped out India and Rome, but Spain has an army noticeably larger than mine, with tanks and marines. She also DoW on Sharka and swiftly vassaled him and Celtics. She was open to bargin for stop war with Sharka but she out-teched me so much I had nothing to offer her. Plus looking at her army I didn’t want her to turn around to attack me. I think I barely deterred her from DoW on me after Sharka by rush researching Artillery, but around this save I think she's preparing to DoW on me. This would be tough as my army is seriously outnumbered, so I plan to withdraw inland to defend and give up some of the border cities.

The 1250 save is after I defeated India and vassaled him. At this point I could move on to wipe out Spain, but I was worrying Rome will run away. Of course I will probably take signficantly fewer turns to take out Spain than Rome, and seeing that he was still a while away from Chemistry maybe that's the route I should have taken?

In 1605 Rome was secured. But Spain was so far ahead of me in Tech. I switched to peace mode and started to grow my population.

Also, don't know if it's just my impression, it seems to me in lots of games that AIs have this "leap" in tech around Liberalsim, many times I was the first one to pop Liberalism, had a huge lead in tech, but by the time my cannon reached the enemy gate I saw riflemen guarding the city.


I have a few questions:
1. I knew all along when I was waring Rome that Spain was growing stronger each turn but there was really no way for me to stop her as I barely defeated Rome. She was friendly with me all along but I already used my "begging for gold" on her when I DoW on Rome. If I decide to attack a strong AI in an all out war, what could I do to contain weaker AI from getting stronger?

2. @Anysense, I followed your suggestion before I DoW on India by giving Philosophy to Rome to get him to like me and then begged for gold, the first time I attacked India I didn't do this and it happened exactly like you said, India becomes a vassle to Rome and get him to attack me. So thanks! But did I do war wrong, giving that I discovered Steel in 1080 but are still weaker than an AI in 1810? I've been drafting units for the price of stunned growth and my research suffered, that's how Spain got so far ahead. Also I gave her Chemistry for free in order for her to stop war with India, otherwise she will vassal him and I would be left with a pressed border.

3. Even though I vassaled India he refuses to trade favaorably with me, not obeying any of my demand either even though he had one city left. Is there anything I'm not aware of? When Spain attacked Sharka I DoW on him too, but he refuse to vassal to me but next turn agreed with Spain. Why is that?

4. Also, what's the benefit of speading religion, other than the gold income and votes?

Thanks.

 

[rah]

4. the hammers from AP religion buildings which when multiplied can become substantial. Unless you're in the final push, you usually recoup the expended hammers.

On the other hand, another DoW is only -1 diplo with some civs, quite irrelevant when you are about to conquer them and don't care for long-term diplomacy anymore.

Yeah, it's always so liberating when you get to the point that you don't give a rat's ass what the others think.

 

[Anysense]

4. Also, what's the benefit of speading religion, other than the gold income and votes?

The gold is irrelevant at this point but you need the votes, the more the better. Otherwise you may end up losing Religious and being able to block resolutions which you don't want to pass is very handy.

In 1250 save you are running wrong civis and building a lot of useless stuff, such as universities, libraries and markets. Basicaly you are not focusing on warfare, if you did, it should not be too difficult to win Domination around 1500 AD from 1030 AD save.

Edit: You still don't chop! There should be death penalty for such crimes.
I'll have to post my take on this war (from 1030 AD to the end), because you appear to have only vague idea of Deity warfare, which is very different from Immortal because Deity AI builds units and does research much faster than Immortal one.

 

[Anysense]

Played first stage - vassalized Gandhi. Next turn I will finish Taj and switch to Rep+Merc to fix my researching ability. Gandhi is at two cities and can do some research as well, not sure he is going to be much use, though.

Spoiler :

Taj is a small building, very easy to build in one turn.

My army is bigger than what you had in 1250 AD, although I made a mistake building too much siege and consequently lack of regular units held me back by a few turns. I think that 1150 AD is doable with some fine tuning.
Romans already have Rifling, but not too many units yet. Need to do a bit more scouting before DoW. Unfocused espionage hurts - can't even see power ratio, let alone research. You should always concentrate all your espionage on one AI, typically best techer.

Spoiler :