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[NFP] My opinion on the new CS bonus

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    I find that the new CS bonus is actually slowing my game pace.

    1: The bonus for 1 envoy reduced from 2 to 1, for commercial CSs it reduces from 4 to 1. That's an early-game backslash, and will only turns positive when you have multiple T1 buildings running, which is dozens of turns later.

    2: The T3 bonus is way too far-away. Even for holy sites it needs you to pick a belief and buy religious buildings, and one +3 T3 religious building is still of low-efficiency. Same for seaports, stock exchanges and broadcast towers, only research labs are going to benefit from this. And that's very late game.

    3: Good things are that now you only need 1 envoy for T1 bonus and 3 for T2 bonus, but in general I think the overall bonus from CS is reduced not increased.
     
  2. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    It's meaningful adjustment for science, cultural and religious CS. For militaristic CS it's basically a nerf, meh.

    But it hurts commercial CS so much and it seems like devs are forget the 2 gold = 1 culture = 1 science conversion rate. (Even 2 gold for Tier 1, 4 for Tier 2, 6 for Tier 3 hurts - Who build Banks after all? 290 production for 5 gold + 1 Great Merchant Point, what's the point?) +3/+6/+9 would make more sense.

    Before this change, meeting a commercial CS at least help you with GPT and make it easier for you to buy a builder or monument. Now maybe one should kill commercial CS they meet for the free real estate.
     
  3. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    I think that that was the idea. Getting the full bonus mid game didn't make much sense.
     
    Myomoto and RohirrimElf like this.
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A little, but also slowing down the opposition more early on higher levels.
    The reduction I feel is positive, CS are still strong but it limits the early game luck but commercial hubs do seem an oversight and military CS a shame in some ways.
     
  5. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    CSs start with 15 base strength, walls and 5 warriors, that's very strong early defense. If you can kill a CS why not kill a Civ? Unless you're Germany.
     
    Uberfrog and Fluphen Azine like this.
  6. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    Have not considered cs slowing the pace of the game. But then i’ve only played the game for 2 hours. I like it cause the game does have quite a lot of power creep since vanilla. Lets hope it slows down early game while not speeding up the later era’s.
     
    Avenger237 likes this.
  7. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    I agree it’s slowing my game but I’m in favor of the change since it makes randomly meeting a bunch of CS early a little less OP. Commercial CS seriously suck though. Already they were very weak and now they are even worse.... Cahokia and Zanzibar are the only ones I don’t actively hate to see.
     
    Avenger237 and hhhhhh like this.
  8. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Yeah I'm aware. I was just using that to indicate how useless commercial CS are right now (they were already bad before the nerf, only Cahokia and Zanzibar are somewhat helpful, but that's the problem of suzerain bonus. Now they are completely useless.)
     
  9. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Happy to see that my purely "theoretical model" seem to translate into real, although anecdotal, evidence.

    One small specific fact that I seemed to have overlooked however is as you pointed out the following:
    Trade city-states used to provide the following bonuses
    4 / 2 / 2 (gold)
    Which translated to the following ratios compared to other city-states
    2:1 / 1:1 / 1:1

    Now the bonuses for trade city-states are
    1 / 2 / 3
    Which translates to the following ratios compared to other city-states
    1:1 / 1:1 / 1:1

    So the trade city-states got a 4x nerf for the 1 envoy level, whereas the other city-states only got a 2x nerf. (This however only influences the capital boost.)
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    4 gold = 2 production and 2 science = 2 production right? That seems like 1:1 not 2:1?
    I guess what you say at the end is right, just misinterpreting your start.
    Anyways, for me the commercial CS loss of 3 at the start I feel is good, gold is not exactly hard to come by. I am feeling the loss with military CS more.
     
    Myomoto likes this.
  11. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Here, I am not taking into consideration any "implied yield value conversion rate", simply the ratios of the raw yields provided by the city-states.
    Before you you got 4 gold in capital for 1 envoy to a trade city-state and 2 production/science/faith for 1 envoy to an industrial/scientific/religious city-state (which translates to a 2:1 gold/other yield ratio).
    Now you get 1 gold in capital for 1 envoy to a trade city-state and 1 production/science/faith for 1 envoy to an industrial/scientific/religious city-state (which translates to a 1:1 gold/other yield ratio).

    Now, if you consider that 2 gold is worth 1 production or 1 science,
    the ratios were formerly
    1:1 / 1:2 / 1:2

    and would now be
    1:2 / 1:2 / 1:2

    and if you wanted to change the current bonuses to make the trade city-states yield respect that conversion rate, the new trade city-state yields would become
    2 / 4 / 6 gold

    But you also have to take into consideration that trade city-states is the only type of city-state that can increase the yields to two different type of districts (CHs and Harbors) ie you can get 2 times the same city-state bonus in the same city. You however need to build 2 different districts (instead of 1) to accomplish this.
     
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  12. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Prince

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    The change hurts commercial CS so much, that their envoy bonuses basically become meaningless - the same can be applied to industrial CS, only an early +1 production on industrial zone is not much better than the poor +1 gold. The nerf is also true for military CS.
    This also means the early industrial zone strategy (besides Hansa) is a thing of the past, unless you are very lucky and have met at least 4 industrial CS in the game.

    For science, religious, and cultural CS, sure, the change is a meaningful balance. But for military, industrial, and commercial CS it is a significant nerf.
    Hope the devs can address this "side effect" in the future updates, as they did try to buff the bank by introducing the much better gilded vault.
     
    Myomoto likes this.
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Hunza is not bad.
     
  14. borad

    borad Warlord

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    On the other hand, you likely have three extra early Governor bumps (assuming you spend one on your Secret Society of choice). That could mean, for example, early Settlers don’t cost you any population.
     
  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    If anyone’s interested, there’s a SteamMod that improves Harbour and Commercial Hub CS yields. See here.
     
  16. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    A bit off-topic but still about the new CS mechanics, noone here plays co-op civ like I do with my wife? Before last patch you could never be 'the first to meet a CS' as they overlooked the impact of shared vision in their implementation, two civs would meet the CS at the same time so no one would. I'm away for a couple of weeks and I was wondering if the new mechanic made them have a look at their code in that regard.
     
    Banazir864 likes this.
  17. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    You can play Civ in co-op?
     
  18. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    I used to play Civ V with my wife. You just make teams and play on the same team. She never got into VI, though.
     
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  19. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    I do feel the commercial one is a bit harsh and perhaps an oversight considering that almost nothing in the game treats Gold as 1/1 with basically anything, but I kinda enjoy the nerf. A little variance from game to game based on CS is great. Having 100% more income of a resource based for like the first 40-50 turns on if you were first to meet X type of CS from game to game was just goofy.

    That said, there are sooooo many other things with secret societies to help with the early game. Maybe the base game is a little slower for it, but players should easily be able to slash 10 turns with secret societies alone on most victory types.
     
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  20. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    MP with fixed teams, affects diplo eurekas and victory conditions
     
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