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My pet hate about g&k's

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by boneys26, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. boneys26

    boneys26 BTS Play session tester

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    I love the new features but at the same time I feel they didn't do enough.

    Privateers, you have to be at war to use this unit on any other civ's, yeah ok I get that they we're given permission to legally go about privateering but we all know they went beyond that. Look at the history of pirates, the game only tells half the story I feel.

    Espionage, think you get a total of 9 spies maximum (with wonder) I love playing a huge earth map with 18+ civ's not including city states, 9 spies isn't enough and they lack any real use other than stealing technologies and if you are ahead its pointless sending them out its best to keep them back for counter-espionage.

    I miss the old spy units you can send out and sab mines etc etc, They had a real use in the game even when you're ahead in technology.

    Not sure if this one is a bug but games in the past done it and it's just happened again in this game, I caught japan stealing a tech and killed his spy a few turns back, I demanded they stop, few turns later I caught and killed another from japan and this time I had no option but to go to war, soon as I did it was followed by about 10 other civs denouncing me, what did I do wrong? I caught the guy twice and warned him the first time yet I'm the bad guy.. guess I can kiss my diplo win good bye :sad:
     
  2. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    As far as the number of spies goes, on the one hand I could see increasing the number to 2 per era on huge maps, but on the other hand even at 1 per era it's overkill on tiny ones. So I don't know if there's really a solution there...I like this espionage system much better than the CiV one.

    With the new diplomacy setup, you have to be really careful about monitoring how the other AIs are getting along amongst themselves. If you DoW or even just denounce a civ that other AIs are friendly with, they're all going to do exactly what they did to you (if you're lucky--if not, they all DoW against you).

    FWIW, you're generally better off forgiving other civs for spying incidents, especially if you're going for a diplo win. Not only does it not anger anyone else, but it gives you a pretty big bonus with the civ you forgave.
     
  3. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Unfortunately, such abilities just create annoyance for the human player: Oh, look! I've got to send a worker back to that hill for the twentieth time this game!
     
  4. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    i had a great time playing "espionage economy" for a while, where i focused hard on espionage. If you were good, you could make a whole game out of it - the only problem was being able to use spies as siege devices...

    the problem now is that spies are soo shallow that it's unfun. I don't really get to "do anything cool" or "fun" with my spies and the only reason i have them is espionage defense. I hate this espionage crap and while i can disable it, i shouldn't have to disable a feature "because it's unfun", instead i should have an "enable fun" button right next to my spies so i can plant a nuke, disrupt research, and buildings, and make citizens unhappy with propaganda.
     
  5. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    I count 7 spies. England 5 + 1 UA bonus +1 Intelligence Agency
     
  6. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    If you'd be able to send your spies everywhere, this wouldn't be fun. You actually have 4 missions for spies - stealing techs (and gathering info), defending against spies, pushing city-states and just looking at enemy cities. Not too much, but everything is really useful.
     
  7. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    Stealing techs and looking at cities are the same mission. It would be nice if they were two different missions, but they aren't. You can't just assign a spy to "look around" and leave him there without him trying to steal a tech.

    Real pirates could only win against merchant vessel, not warships... and there aren't any merchant vessels in Civ V. Allowing the current Privateers (which are powerful military vessels) to attack friendly vessels like in Civ IV would be a serious balance problem, not to mention ahistorical... there were no "shadow fleets" of military vessels sailing around attacking enemy military fleets under pirate flags.

    I agree that the Espionage system seems bare-bones, but I don't think the super-annoying system from Civ IV is a good answer.

    Elizabeth asks me to join her in her war against Attila, who has two cities; I agree. She captures one city, I capture the other, and Attila is eliminated. Next turn, Elizabeth denounces me as a warmonger.

    Harald's spy get caught trying to steal technology from me, so I demand that he stop spying. He responds in a hostile manner, saying that his spying was perfectly justified. Next turn, Harald begs forgiveness for having been caught spying on me.

    Yes, the "diplomacy" system still leaves a lot to be desired.
     
  8. boneys26

    boneys26 BTS Play session tester

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    My whole issue with the denouncing is the fact the AI 1, over use it. 2, don't look at any facts before using it..

    If the player caught a AI civ stealing a tech, that player should be able to denounce for it without 10 other civs denouncing the player or even go to war over it (if the AI civ has been caught within a set time,) only during that war ie: the human player goes to far takes a few cities, only then should the AI start to denounce.

    seams to me the whole system is set up to punish the player, how I came to this.

    AI stole a tech "I forgive", few turns later he stole another "I can not forgive" few turns later I caught the spy and killed him, I then denounce the civ, next turn 5 others denounce me "The victim"

    reload,
    AI stole a tech "I forgive", few turns later does it again "I forgive" few turns later 4 AI spies steal/are caught trying to steal a tech.

    reload,
    AI stole a tech "I forgive", few turns later does it again "I dow his ass!" next turn half the world denounce me.

    You can nuke the AI and get less of a reaction.
     
  9. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    This. Other than having no flavor at all, (espionage), the system of it is bad for the player. I stole a tech earlier today and - the whole world denounced me in a big chain and now the all hate me because i stole a tech from someone who has stolen 3 techs from me - but when i made my denouncement - i got denounced again.
     
  10. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    Last night, my spies killed three AI spies. They did it automatically, which I thought was weird. I had forgiven Korea and he promised not to spy again, then about twenty turns later I get a notice that I had killed one of his spies. Then later got a notice that I had killed one of France's spies (first offense). Then a turn or two later I had killed Bismark's spy (we were at war at the time).
     
  11. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    The issues so far for me are minor:

    AI makes good use of Citadels, but their units don't understand them. Seen many troops just dying because they wanted to bombard my city standing in and around my citadel. When they fled they decided to pillage it. Would be nice if they knew to attack them with ranged, pillage if it's not defended or as soon as they got through. And fortify a unit of their own in them, they got plenty of units.

    Privateers are too influential. At the least their ability shouldn't carry over to destroyers. That part of naval war should be isolated to their time, and maybe be nerfed to 50% chance of capture.

    I think that's my gripes atm.
     
  12. Yngvi

    Yngvi Chevalier du Tastevin

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    Espionage is fine as it is; some people seem to forget Sitting Bull in Civ IV and how aggravating the poisoned water and destroyed farms--and ultimately how pointless. Espionage could have more features, but most new additions would just be duplicating the two-bit garbage of Civ IV and, really, almost everybody likes to steal techs most of all.

    Regarding privateers, they are probably OP as they are now; they certainly do not need to be able to war against peaceful neighbors. Besides, historically, privateers are not pirates. Two different words, two different definitions. Privateers attacked the king's enemies with the king's permission.

    Diplomatically, yes, there does need to be some tweaks. Espionage needs to be more influenced by diplomacy and leader-flavor. Now they blithely steal from anybody and almost always promise to stop then just continue merrily as before.
     
  13. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    The idea of using Privateers as commerce raiders against notionally peaceful neighbors is dubious, at best. Pirates could be modeled, but they certainly wouldn't be under your control, they would be barbarian units that steal your gold. Still want em?

    Espionage needs a couple things. You need to be able to attach diplomatic penalties to Coups - right now you have no recourse. You can warmonger against AIs stealing your CSes, but they won't know why and they will brand you a menace to the world. I need some way of using my spies to prevent the coup if I know it's coming, and some way of punishing the AI that the AI will understand.

    Espionage could also use maybe ~3 more missions. They can't be the nitpicky stuff from Civ 4, though. Something to cause tension between two other civs. Something that gives you an economic advantage. Maybe a high risk mission in an enemy capital to find one of their spies (you get to track their movements for a few turns), which you can share as intrigue or act upon by assigning counterintelligence to. That might be too nitpicky, though.

    Could also use some way of training up your spies without having to steal a tech or defend a steal. When you're ahead and nobody is stealing from you, your spies can't level up. Some way to divert at least SOME of your production/gold into it would be great. Not a slider, but maybe a building, or Build Intelligence like you can Build Wealth.

    All in all, Espionage actually works pretty well. Remember that it's a 'free' system, unlike previous iterations - you don't divert cash or production into it, you (largely) get it for free in the game. So it can't be too powerful, certainly a system like that shouldn't swamp the returns on the very expensive economic investments you have to make throughout the rest of the game.
     
  14. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Stealing a tech takes a lot of time. You could move your spy between different cities each other turn. You'll not steal any tech, but not risk as well and get a lot of info.

    The main problem with espionage in all games is what it's another way to do things already in the game. So, since there's a direct competition with regular gameplay, it has good chances to be either useless or overpowered.

    The only unique thing for espionage is gaining info. I think we could see improvements in this area in the future - i.e. knowing what others are researching, etc.

    Speaking of the rest - tech stealing is nicely balanced. On one hand, it's powerful. On the other hand, it never competes with other tech sources due to limited number of spies and large time to perform the action.

    City-state actions aren't so good. You have direct duplicate functions in buying city-state with gold and using spies here. If you'll add some method for gaining money, for example, this will become either less fun. What's better - gain money with spies and buy a city state, or perform spy action in the city-state directly? Will be very easy to calculate if you know exact risks and formulas.
     
  15. Randall_Flagg

    Randall_Flagg The Evil One

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    If I had to move spies around, Espionage would never be in my games. There can be to much in a game, it then stops being fun and becomes work. But no doubt they need to tweak the AI dip on it.
     
  16. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Mine is a privateer prize ship promotion, used on a destroyer to capture an aircraft carrier. That is absolutely silly!
     
  17. ShredZ

    ShredZ Warlord

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    I definitely dont miss poising the water supply and sab'ing mines.

    In my game, after getting in trouble for stealing tech, then defending against it until lvl3, I used them exclusively for hundreds of years to rig elections, and clearly the AI thinks its a good idea too, b/c we have spy battles every vote, i lost at rigging like 4 times in a row, then i won, but then lizzy stages a coup! ahhh I want my CSs dammit. Very hard to hang onto now.

    The only problem with exclusive rigging is that you never get those helpful spy reports ie 'lizzy is building up to attack so-n-so' and thats kindov a bummer. If there was a way to only get spy reports, and not steal tech, I think id be on board for that all the time - I guess i just like having a look under the hood.
     
  18. Gali

    Gali Prince

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    In regards to espionage it would be a lot better if they treated breaking the promise not to spy like any of the others, not expanding, stacking units near borders and give it a universal diplo penalty if broken with a 50 turn timer. Add in ai to avoid it and it becomes much more livable.

    For me a pet peeve is AI spamming my Holy city with GP and me being able to do nothing about it. In one game my diplomacy died when I dowd to kill a GP spamming my cap. It would have done nothing but cost me massively in turns of faith. There should be an option to warn ai about spread, like they can and have the ai know and evaluate whether they want that penalty. COuld be determined by how much they like you and religious score. That way friends won't spam misionaries WITH NO CONSEQUENCES while retaliating could get you ostracized. Add in ability to boot missionaries from territory, not kill, with diplo penalty, and it'd be fine. But the first I feel is necessary, why can the Ai continually spam my cities while if I do one they hate and denounce me.
     
  19. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    It requires a little extra effort on your part, but if you move your spy to another city in that civ's empire a turn or two before you get the tech, it should start his progress over. Or just place the spy in a small city with very low potential--you could be looking at 100 turns or more (on standard speed!) before he successfully steals a tech. Either way, you're still getting those intrigue reports.
     
  20. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    Leave an inquisitor in your holy city. Great prophets/missionaries can't do anything to a city with an inquisitor present.
     

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