my problem with stability

[Chiyochan]

i never really liked stability, it made some sense, and its a cool feature that helps limit lots of revolutions ( although the permanent instability points for that seem a little much, maybe long lasting instead) and it certainly puts a dent in REX,


my problem with stability is different, and maybe i'm just missing something, i've popped open the world builder dozens of times for testing, I've quick saved and reloaded, maybe its just part of the terrible AI system that the added difficulty in Rhye's makes even worse, but whatever the issue is i can never ever capitulate a civ before they collapse, no matter what i try it seems impossible, the only vassals I've had are ones that offer up themselves. the issue seems compounded by the independant and native leader system, you cant vassalise a country when you're at war with someone else because they will never risk declaring war on the other person even if you're about to kill them anyway, IIRC independents and natives DoP after ten turns, i could be wrong, what bugs me is that they often just DoW you and theres no notification. its even worse with justinian because you have to spend centuries just to take every city when you just want a few ( or wait for turkey)

because the AI is unpleasable (well, you can make them happy but they never gift you anything and they want outrageous 1 sided trades) vassals are pretty much the only way i find AI interaction tolerable, especially if i'm competing with other AI for vassals.

TL;DR
is there a trick to getting vassals? if not, is there a way to make the AI less likely to red list? i captured every one of Frances cities except the two near rome and spain and a turn before france fell apart i still couldn't get them to surrender.

 

[rjaco31]

Well, you could either lower the stability limit for breakdown or change the vassalage conditions for AIs

 

[blizzrd]

i can never ever capitulate a civ before they collapse, no matter what i try it seems impossible

To get a capitulation, you have to be perceived as a large threat to the AI. By large, I generally mean large land area. The AI respects large civs a lot more than small ones. If you are a small (land area) civ, although you might have a military advantage in technology, the AI often doesn't consider this to be "scary" enough to capitulate.

This said, some civs are just harder to capitulate than others. Mongolia, Aztec and Russia are probably some of the hardest ones from my experience. But they are all possible, I've done each enough times to know.

Another factor in capitulation seems to be the speed at which you conquer cities. A slow grinding down of an empire (such as conquering cities using many siege units) doesn't usually work towards a capitulation. But a quick raiding attack which seizes the three biggest cities on the same turn is a good chance to get a capitulation.

 

[Chiyochan]

To get a capitulation, you have to be perceived as a large threat to the AI. By large, I generally mean large land area. The AI respects large civs a lot more than small ones. If you are a small (land area) civ, although you might have a military advantage in technology, the AI often doesn't consider this to be "scary" enough to capitulate.

cause thats historicaly accurate

This said, some civs are just harder to capitulate than others. Mongolia, Aztec and Russia are probably some of the hardest ones from my experience. But they are all possible, I've done each enough times to know.

Another factor in capitulation seems to be the speed at which you conquer cities. A slow grinding down of an empire (such as conquering cities using many siege units) doesn't usually work towards a capitulation. But a quick raiding attack which seizes the three biggest cities on the same turn is a good chance to get a capitulation.

thats pretty much what i did in the world builder alot, so theres apparently no way to fix this but to delve into the AI, is this accessible from the XML? if so does anyone know the modifiers to fix?

 

[Chiyochan]

no one knows how to fix this huh?

 

[onedreamer]

no one knows how to fix this huh?

yeah, it's hard to fix something that's not broken...

the issue seems compounded by the independant and native leader system, you cant vassalise a country when you're at war with someone else

I don't think this is the case with capitulation. Besides, they are most likely to be at war with natives, and likely to be at war with one of the 2 indies.

because the AI is unpleasable (well, you can make them happy but they never gift you anything and they want outrageous 1 sided trades) vassals are pretty much the only way i find AI interaction tolerable, especially if i'm competing with other AI for vassals.

this is just wrong. Vassals make the same ludicrous demands of non vassals. The only advantage you have is that you can control what they research, hence you can make them research 1 long tech while you research 3 shorter ones in order to trade them thereafter, since apparently the AI weights the number of techs quite a bit, while it should value their total turns needed to research instead.

is there a trick to getting vassals? if not, is there a way to make the AI less likely to red list? i captured every one of Frances cities except the two near rome and spain and a turn before france fell apart i still couldn't get them to surrender.

In case you haven't thought about it, making them your vassals won't prevent them to collapse. They would collapse a few turns after being your vassals and you wouldn't have gained anything.

 

[Chiyochan]

yeah, it's hard to fix something that's not broken...

Sorry, but while you're entitled to your opinion, You're flat wrong if you think a tiny insignificant island off the cost of Europe didn't manage to capitulate and vassalize many nations.

In case you haven't thought about it, making them your vassals won't prevent them to collapse. They would collapse a few turns after being your vassals and you wouldn't have gained anything.

i didnt think of that =/

anyway I'm still waiting for any information on how to mod how the AI considers things for capitulation, The xml in civ leaders dint yield any results on -20,

 

[onedreamer]

as you said it's very hard to do it without collapsing the civ because the terms for BtS AI to accept to capitulate are pretty much the same that will make a civ collapse in RFC. Unfortunately, I doubt there is a solution, or at least not an easy and quick one.
As Blizzard suggested, you should have a huge land score and army score, then they are most likely to vassalize, both peacefully or by means of strength.

 

[Chiyochan]

as you said it's very hard to do it without collapsing the civ because the terms for BtS AI to accept to capitulate are pretty much the same that will make a civ collapse in RFC. Unfortunately, I doubt there is a solution, or at least not an easy and quick one.
As Blizzard suggested, you should have a huge land score and army score, then they are most likely to vassalize, both peacefully or by means of strength.

again i'd like to know how the AI determains this and how/where to edit it if possible

 

[djenghis]

im playing america and cant figure out what is wrong
cities -2
civics -5
economy +45
expansion +2
foreign +8

and my overall rating is stable +14. Only +14!

45+2+8-2-5= +48 and playing on easiest difficulty level??

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Remember the permanent stability hits when you switch civics.

 

[djenghis]

even when you have cristo redentor?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But you had your 3 turns of anarchy initially + religion switch.

 

[djenghis]

later on i was very good on all categories, except for expansion. I conquered the entire middle east for the oil, and got the UHV. Now i want to continue to do a conquest victory, but my expansion rating is -48.

how can i improve this? I switched to occupation before the middle east conquest, and have 3 vassals.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Once you have about 20+ cities gift newly conquered cities to your vassals, but make sure to gift cities to the vassal that will most likely use them, since if they get too many stability penalties you will too.

 

[onedreamer]

even when you have cristo redentor?

there are several things that will cause permanent stability changes (even positive ones), so that total you see is only about temporary stability values.

 

[Chiyochan]

im playing america and cant figure out what is wrong
cities -2
civics -5
economy +45
expansion +2
foreign +8

and my overall rating is stable +14. Only +14!

45+2+8-2-5= +48 and playing on easiest difficulty level??

Thanks for hijacking my thread brah,
but really, =/ does anyone here even mod? or am i asking people without the slightest clue what files define how the AI handles catipulation

 

[Arkaeyn]

Do you mod? Judge not lest ye be judged, etc.

 

[Panopticon]

Thanks for hijacking my thread brah,
but really, =/ does anyone here even mod? or am i asking people without the slightest clue what files define how the AI handles catipulation

If you are asking an C++ question, maybe you should ask in the C++ forum, since it's already been explained that the capitulation code is primarily a BTS issue.

 

[Chiyochan]

Do you mod? Judge not lest ye be judged, etc.

I'm sure i've already seen my fair share of judging,

If you are asking an C++ question, maybe you should ask in the C++ forum, since it's already been explained that the capitulation code is primarily a BTS issue.

No, it hasnt been explained, in fact, your post probably contains more information than every other post in this thread, in that it has something to do with C++, although I still dont know what i should be looking into to change this. and i thought civ used python.