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[GS] My rave over religion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by tetley, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Hello, I am very late to the party. I just started Civ6 this month; courtesy of a Steam Sale a few months ago. My first experience with Civ6 (besides the demo) is GS.

    That being said: I read some sharply critical comments about Civ6's religion system on this board. And I must say, my experience has been the exact opposite. I really like Civ6's religion system a lot! This idea of a war within a war: apostles duking it out, and existing as "ghosts" on the same map as all your armies--yet they don't seem to recognize that the other even exists. A spiritual war, and a sword war, fought on two completely different fronts, yet sometimes on the very same hexes. And yet the religious game impacts your civilization's game at some interface points. It's totally brilliant.

    I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement, but come on--that's because the system is brand new. Yea religion! I hope in a future release they can expand on this; maybe for culture. Like a battle of the bands, or Antarctica's Got Talent.
     
  2. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz King

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    The only issue I have with the religion system is that the AI stopped making inquisitors, I think after the last patch before R&F. The AI knew how to build them, I had my fair share of situations where it was trick to convert another Civ because their territory was filled with inquisitors, then the AI just "forgot" how to do it. It been years since I saw an AI inquisitor. The only resistance the AI offers is an Apostle with the debater promotion here and there, so it's way too easy to spread my religion, I can move around unafraid of any meaningful defense. I miss inquisitors a lot.

    The religious units didn't use to have their own "ghost" layer, btw. If you had played back in the first year of Civ VI, you would be annoyed by all the religious units blocking your path, it was a nightmare. This was one of the best changes they did since the game was released.

    Edit: Actually I lied, that's not the only issue I have. Another thing that bothers me is how meaningless passive spread is. I had situations where a city of another religion was completely surrounded by cities of my religion, 50-80 turns later and nothing, it just take too long to convert with passive spread. You can't build a strategy around it, any ability that buff it is just too little to matter. I like religious combat but I wish passive spread was more meaningful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    There’s a lot to like about the Religion system.

    Stuff I really like includes:
    • Great Prophets. Everyone can have a Religion, but only a few can found a Religion. I really like this dynamics. Fun rush to get a Religion (or you can choose to ignore or just be opportunistic). I like HS then basically don’t have a Great Person the rest of the game, and indeed like this mechanic even more now you get extra faith (tedious if every district has a great person). I get some people dislike you can capture other Civ's Religion and there's no "Religious Schism" mechanic, but I don't think either mechanic is needed. If you could capture Religions, this would really kill the initial rush to get a Great Prophet; and I don't think an explicit Schism mechanic is needed - someone founds Roman Chatolicism, and someone can later found Prodestantism. The link doesn't need to be mechanical, it can just be in your head.
    • Beliefs. I really like the way you take beliefs, and the competition to get them early (like pantheons), and the way they are divided up and can spread (ie founder, follower, a building, and combat bonus).
    • Combat. I think the way Religion spreads is pretty good, eg a bit of passive, a bit of spreads, a lot of combat. It’s not the most complicated system, but it does allow for this sort of “war by other means” vibe.
    • Culture and Religion. I like the way Religion, Faith and Culture interact. It’s not straightforward in a way that’s quite interesting, eg Beliefs that give you more Culture or let you hold great works; faith letting you buy great people (including artists); Religion actually generating tourism. Religion also impacts other mechanics is cool ways, eg Science to a smaller extent, eg Jesuit, that Holy Site Science Dark Age Card; amenities, housing and food via Pantheons and some Beliefs. All cool stuff.
    • Loyalty and Religion. Linking loyalty to Religion is super cool, and is an interesting strategic consideration. Founding a Religion and spreading Religion for loyalty can make Domination easier, and creates great synergies with eg Spain.
    • Civilizations. I like how various Civs play off Religion. You have Civs like Arabia and Russia, that get bonuses to earning Religion, and can then do different things with Religion than other Civs; Civs like Spain and Georgia that are better at Religion or can do more with it, so even though they don’t have bonuses for getting Religion the opportunity cost investing in Religion is better; Civs like India and Khmer who are really designed to not bother founding a Religion, but instead better exploit Religions spread to them; and then Civs like Norway and Indonesia that basically ignore Religion but get more out of Faith and Holy Sites. Freaking awesome stuff.
    I don't go for Religion in many games, but have in the past. It's generally good fun either way, particularly now Faith is just more important across the board.

    That's said, there are some areas where I think Religion could be improved without (hopefully) heaps of work from FXS.

    eg
    • Relics, Beliefs and Great Prophets. Relics could be easier to get. Personally, I also dislike how you evangelise Beliefs. I generally like how you don’t keep recruiting Great Prophets all game, but I could see a mechanic where number of Religions stays limited, but you can keep recurring Great Prophets that act like Great Generals but also grant Relics and Beliefs when you retire them.
    • Beliefs. Beliefs need to be rebalanced along the same lines as Pantheons just got. Many beliefs are quite weak, and they could just use a general revamp and reboot.
    • Units. I'd like to see more Unique Religious Units unlock via Beliefs, like how Monks do. Like, maybe Gurus should unlock via a Belief rather than be available to everyone. I think this is a big missed opportunity. Having unique units unlock via beliefs would make Beliefs more valuable and desirable, and would also help address the current problem that every world religion has the same units, every game, all game. It would also add more asymmetry and dynanism to Religious Combat.
    • Loyalty. The +/-3 loyalty for following a founded Religion that FXS patched in was just such an awesome, awesome change and made religion, loyalty and war way more interesting. Loyalty and Relgion just seem like such a natural fit - I really want to see Cities changing hands because of shifts in Religion (and not just if you founded the Religion). I think a little more mechanics in that direction would be just awesome and make the game much richer.
    • Diplomacy. I also think Religion should also have a little more impact on Diplomacy. Even something as simple as owning a Holy City giving you more Diplo Favour. Even if the bonus to Diplomacy is purely just flavour.
    There’s a thread here and here on suggested changes to Religion if people want to read more.
     
    Meluhhan and LMT like this.
  4. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    It's because the Pressure isn't capped for a city.

    I don't have all the values in mind, so let's assume that you need 200 Pressure to convert 1 Population. If you have a city of 10 Population, you will need 2000 Pressure to convert 100% of the religionless into religious. But your city can still get more Pressure (and stacks it). You don't need it for future Population because, when your city grows, the pressure grows in proportion: basicly +200 pressure proportionally distributed.

    If you try to convert that 10 Population city (that will stay at 10 for ever) that managed to get 8000 Pressure with passive spread, even if you managed to put the city under 40 pressure per turn, you will need 200 turns to convert it (and it will still have 8000 pressure toward the old, just you now also have 8000 towards yours). Missionaries erase 10% of foreign pressure, Apostles 25%, and Inquisitors 75% so that kind of help. You will need 12 spreads from missionnaries, 7 from apostles, 3 from inquisitors to convert that city.

    If it was capped to 2000 for a 10 population city, then your pressure will erase the enemy pressure. So you will only need 1000 Pressure to convert, reducing the time need from 200 turns to 25, while still need 6 spreads from missionnaries, 4 from apostles and 2 from inquisitors.

    As long the Pressure for each city isn't capped, then passive spread will struggle to be effective.
    (Or I may be completely wrong: I don't find the Religion article).
     
    leandrombraz likes this.
  5. LMT

    LMT Warlord

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    Passive spread is weak, IMO. I usually take the Scripture belief and this helps a little.

    Although on higher difficulties (Immortal and Deity), it seems that Scripture helps more to hold areas already converted rather than to increase your religion's range.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I guess it is debating (combat) rather than passive spread because of accidental wins otherwise. Passive spread does help with conversion and I guess that makes sense to me.
    Some people find the lightening during a debate a bit melodramatic but hey, others like it.

    The real problem you see through the complaint threads is not that the core design is wrong but the AI’s ability to compete is just appalling. You want to win an RV, it is not hard. Missionaries first to get some conversions going then in with the debating teams and some well targeted holy city conversions and it is good game.

    It is sorta fun the first few times but personally I find its just another easy victory mechanic. With some overly OP possibilities. A Yerevan/Moksha combo is just insanely good, especially teamed with a golden age.
     
    acluewithout, AsH2 and Pure24 like this.
  7. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Yeah, I did a religious victory as Russia the other day, just because I needed it clocked in the Hall Of Fame. I was somewhat annoyed to see how passive the AI was at countering my conversion of their cities. Once I got the first wave going and started to convert their cities, they did nothing to convert them back. They even had missionaries and apostles running around the map, but no action was taken (they did, however, hold their missionaries protected in cities, which was wise). Several religious emergencies were declared, but never did they actually try to act on them.
     
  8. Karmah

    Karmah King Supporter

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    Well, I used to hate it because it was a huge cost for very few synergies , then I just ignored it. Now with faith getting a lot of traction, I 'm rediscovering religion as a side effect of investing into faith and I do like it.
     
  9. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    I find passive spread really powerful. You just need to nudge it along a bit.
     
  10. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    How about the Martyr game? I haven't built the martyr wonder yet, and have only let some martyrs die when it was easy. I've never strategized for martyrs, but a Great Work for around 500 faith and a little work getting your spreads down to 1 first + a few debate victories to offset the spread seems like a pretty good deal.
     
  11. Dragabond

    Dragabond Warlord

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    My favorite thing to do when I have Mont St. Michel is to have a city with an enemy religion produce apostles, and then suicide them in a third religion's territory. That gets me a relic and lowers one of the enemy religion's pressure, so there's really not much for me to have lost, there.

    It's even better with the Khmer, since you can just throw missionaries into the pyre and drown in the relics they give you.
     
  12. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    That's a good idea.

    My concerns with relics are a) it looks like tourism has no value in Civ6 beyond just getting a CV. And b) Looks like you get 4 faith-per-turn from a relic, and I'm not seeing a lot of multipliers unless you get reliquary. If you spend 400-500 faith on an apostle, do you ever get your faith back? Okay, so you get relics. So what? CV, and that's it?
     
  13. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    I'm ok with the religious mechanics, but I don't care for it as a victory condition. What I absolutely hate though is the lack of notification about rivals converting my cities. In my current game the Cree just sends wave after wave and I have to check my entire empire every few turns. Even after a holy war he won't back down. Time for another, more permanent solution...
     

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