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My take on why Civ 6 will be a bad game, a 3 pt. podcast

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Bibor, Aug 15, 2016.

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  1. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Ever evolving thread, what can I say.

    You can safely skip my whole rant and read either TMIT's summary or the old thread on this very same topic.

    The old (Civ5) thread, still valid. Different game, same potential issues.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=400803

    My rants.
    Spoiler :
    Summary:

    Lacking any need for motoric skills, Civilization games are games for the mind. There's graphics, audio and music, but the bulk of the game happens in the mind, the audio-visual elements just helping with immersion.

    Mind games are, by default, based on decisions (choices). These decisions have various weights, consequences, effects. Screen-based games, like computer games, have the additional effect, just as my podcast, that the mind game itself (or the audio in my podcasts' case), isn't enough: players need to be entertained by audio-visual and other distractions to fill the void left by the moments that aren't about decision making. This is an inherent defficiency of games that require no motoric skills, because there's no movement or time-related excitement.

    The course Civilization 5+ took (and by this I mean to extreme, all civilization titles suffer from this) is the worst-case scenario for anyone interested in the "mind game" aspect of it. Instead of improving (completely revamping) the decision-making aspect of the game, they are constantly shifting around the distractions and other irrelevant segments of the game. I the recording, I call this "the clicking game" - things that you click but don't have any relevant impact on gameplay.
    Constantly and decidedly shifting away from it's board game and strategy game roots, the Civilization franchise is turning into a Farmville-like distraction party, with beautifully crafted scenery, screens and buildings, with little else to offer.

    In the podcast, I'm covering the history and offer an explanation on why this is happening, I compare it to other games that managed to pull it off and offer insight why or how Civilization 6 could've played.

    This lack of strong, decision-based game mechanics and sticking to old, irrelevant ones, is turning out to be (unrusprisingly) an uphill battle for the developers: the AI can't deal with it and thus still cheats, combat is more a drag than fun, gampelay is full of "nothing happens this turn" and the game cannot be ported to other mediums (consoles, mobiles, tablets).

    If you don't feel like listening to the podcast while doing something else, Tabarnak was kind enough to remind me of a thread from six years ago in which I was - surprisingly - saying the same thing. It's worth reading through.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=400803



    Link to video.


    Link to video.


    Link to video.
     
  2. EgyptRaider

    EgyptRaider Warlord

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    Is there a transcript for people who are actually self confident of their own reading and interpretation abilities?
     
  3. wiggawuu

    wiggawuu Warlord

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    def going to watch these. I always love getting to hear an honest take. I mean, I hope this game will be amazing. but all the youtube people that got early access are biased.
     
  4. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    Weird, as everything so far seems to upgrade Civ 5 systems, bring back mechanics from Civ 4 and create new innovations.
     
  5. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    It's clickbait. You get more views by shouting that the building is on fire than by saying everything is okay.
     
  6. isau

    isau Deity

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    This really doesn't need an entire forum post. To save you 45 minutes, summary is: person who hasn't played Civ 6 claims that even if a lot of people like Civ 6 like they did Civ 5, it's a bad game. Nothing (literally nothing--its the same screenshot all the way through) to see here.
     
  7. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    I'd be the first to say that everything is okay.

    I am not a professional youtuber, and it's not a clickbait. I'm actually quite surprised you think it is. I'm not into Civ games anymore, but after watching Arumba's video, I felt compelled to finally react.

    Sadly no, but I hope you won't be dissapointed by listening to it all the way.

    You can't really comment on it if you didn't listen it through. This kind of an answer is exactly why I made a podcast out of it.
     
  8. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    As you mentioned at the beginning, an issue with written text is that some people cannot interpret what they read very well. I don't think Civfanatics are those people, however.

    A problem with an audio recording is that everyone processes at a different speed. In general, you need to speak clearly, but quickly. You do not speak quickly, but I can't process it any faster than you speak no matter how quickly I can comprehend. I can't skip ahead because I might miss something.

    Instead, I am wasting a lot of time waiting for you to say the thing I have already concluded. And I have to wait just in case you dont say the thing I have already concluded.

    A game is meant to be fun. That's it. If enough people find it fun, it cannot be a bad game, by definition.

    A design is meant to accomplish something. If the game achieves what it was attempting to accomplish, then it was designed well. Usually that goal includes being popular, which is also often failed. But if that is the only goal and it succeeds at that, then it is a well designed game, even if you personally don't like it.

    I will admit that I didn't listen all the way through. If you had made a post, I would have read the whole thing, because I can read quickly. I know that I also comprehend text just fine, but I understand your concern that many people do not.

    Unfortunately, it is more important that people even see/hear your argument than that they understand it. You can always explain more in debate.
     
  9. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    I think it should be called "The Whole Civ series are bad games with no decisions"

    I get the impression that the podcaster doesn't simply like the civ series. Because many examples are things that are going on in previous games too.
     
  10. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    Beautiful post :goodjob: Read and (surprisingly i guess) interpreted.
     
  11. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    Dear Christ. We don't all have 45 minutes to burn listening to someone we don't know opine about a game he hasn't even played.
     
  12. EgyptRaider

    EgyptRaider Warlord

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    This quote alone shows how off the logic was to turn to an audio recording. I would have gladly written it, but after 5 minutes you still hadn't said anything crucial or got to your point. If people interpret your writing (or speaking) wrong; maybe you need to be more concise. :king:
     
  13. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Thanks.

    If its surprising you interpreted it because I was a little wordy, I understand. Sometimes I write poorly.

    If its surprising you interpreted it because of the argument that most people don't interpret things, I disagree. I like to assume people are smart until they prove me wrong :D

    That's why I make posts on the forums. If I thought people couldn't be reached, what would be the point? Isn't communication the reason we are all here?
     
  14. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    OP likes Civ4 but hates Civ5, if I am recalling some spirited discussions correctly :)

    Seeing how Civ6 is continuing in Civ5's direction rather than reversing course back towards Civ4, I'm not surprised. But yeah there is a bias.
     
  15. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Okay, I added a summary in the first post :)
     
  16. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Each of the gameplay mechanics in Civ5 affected the whole of the game. The only problem was that some parts were so much more influential that the others were essentially meaningless. This is an issue of balance, not of the game mechanics itself. Anyone could easily fix the balance by changing some numbers in a mod.

    So if it isn't the mechanics itself, but the balance, how can you possibly conclude that Civ6 is bad in this respect before experiencing the balance?

    And thank you for the summary.

    Edit: I responded before you edited your summary. I think we're having a more basic disagreement.

    If you want to play Chess with different rules, that's fine. That is not an inherently better game than one in which you have strategic moves that ALSO look pretty. Some people find the aesthetic interesting on its own, and they enjoy the story that unfolds as their choices play out.

    Why is this a problem? Its not the same game. If you want Civ1, you still have Civ1.
     
  17. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    Clearly decision making is still a significant part of the game, making a difference as to whether you win or lose, right? So this clicking game is smoke and mirrors designed to distract and create the illusion of more decisions, it's a part of the mind game, and it's best operated when the smoke and mirrors vary from game to game, based on things like, say, terrain.

    That's the principle behind civ 5+ is it not? Civ 5 did it poorly, a salt start was a win etc. Civ VI we don't know enough about in this regard, but the key to refining this element is time invested in balance. It is not fundamentally wrong, which is the impression i get from you. Gaming is not a dichotomy of Chess and Ping Pong.
     
  18. wiggawuu

    wiggawuu Warlord

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    You should start a kickstarter to make rise of nations 2. I feel like you would prefer some real time elements.
     
  19. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    No, we don't disagree on this one. I don't want chess and I don't want civ1. I want a brilliant *and* pretty game. Distractions are welcome, I want them. They make the game more fun.

    Distractions aren't the problem. I have 1900 hours in Civ5, yet, I can find you perhaps 10 decisions per game that made an actual impact my every win.

    Let me put it this way. Civilization is about building a house brick by brick. You can't really see if you built four windows until you laid all the bricks and finished that side of the house. And then a tank comes and wants to run over your house. Would you rather be worried about which brick goes where, or be able to tell "gimme a wall with four windows here" and then worry about where to place a bunker?

    Because this is what happens.

    And both the tank mechanics suffer and the house-building suffers. Oh, but you can choose to put in darkened windows now. With flowers in front.
     
  20. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    A good idea with these sort of videos/podcasts is to listen to them at double speed. 22 minutes or so is just at the edge of doable for me. I would have nevertheless had a little script as you seemed to repeat some points and could have used a bit of tightening up. But in general, I also prefer text over video or audio, you can scan so much more easily (and you will get more responses, though not all may have read everything, I give you that).

    As for your content. Going full on "decisions" would result in a game where you would sit in your throne room and then you get questions thrown at you which can result in this or that. It'd be essentially a role-playing game, no?

    What you don't take up is what one may call the "settlers"-factor. If you've ever played the Settlers series (and which is also true for a lot of economic simulators) is the satisfaction you get for building a house and then watching it work, the farmers farming, the trade routes flowing and so on. This awe-inspiring empire builder is what civilization is about. Of course, war and other civs are just an interruption to that which creates the "slow turns" you speak of.

    Essentially, you plead for minimizing micromanagement opportunities, and I can concur to that because that would only leave the most relevant decisions. But some people like micromanagement, I don't know for what reason though ;)
     
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