My vassal built the United Nations, but that's not the worst of it...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Powerslave, Sep 23, 2006.

  1. Powerslave

    Powerslave Prince

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    The backstory:
    (Skip this part if you want)

    I was playing as Elizabeth, trying to beat my prior record for Great Person births, playing a specialist economy, attempting a cultural victory. Unfortunately, I didn't get a single religion. By opening my borders, I was able to coax a few AIs into spreading their religions to me.

    Fast forward to the late 18th century. I was getting very worried, because I didn't seem close at all to having three legendary cities. Fearing for the worst, I embarked on the long, tense path to the SS victory. Staying at 100% culture, Representation, Mercantilism, Free Speech, and producing culture in all three designated cities, I slowly researched each SS tech. Strangely enough, I even bypassed a few AIs.

    I signed a defensive pact with Hannibal, attempting to guarantee my survival, should Ragnar get uppity. Several decades later, I remembered that I had enabled Permanent Alliances. And Hannibal was willing! For the first time ever, I signed a Permanent Alliance with an AI (though, I had done so earlier with humans in MP games).

    Now feeling quite a bit more ballsy, I declared war on Gandhi and gleefully accepted his capitulation, despite the protestations of my girlfriend, who was watching me play. I should have listened to her!

    The Crux:

    All my problems started when I accepted Gandhi's capitulation!

    Gandhi refused to trade me any SS parts. Gandhi continued to research and build SS parts as fast as he could. He was a runaway train of research. I hate Gandhi.

    Gandhi built the damn United Nations. Ever wondered what happens when your vassal builds the United Nations? He votes for himself, that's what he does. He votes for himself. I hate Gandhi.

    My girlfriend yelled, "Nuke him! Nuke him!"

    But I couldn't, because he was my vassal. I had to sit there, watching him build SS piece after SS piece, voting for himself, and trying to win via two different methods. He couldn't elect himself, but it was still frustrating. I hate Gandhi.

    Ever wondered what happens when your vassal launches the SS? You lose.

    I HATE GANDHI. AND I HATE VASSALS.

    Next time, I'm checking "no vassal states", or I'm going to nuke Gandhi so bad, he'll be begging me to raze his cities.
     
  2. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    ...at least, we can know safely answer to the "can a vassal build the spaceship and win" question :D

    Thanks for sharing :p
     
  3. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    For some reason, that strikes me as something that should not happen. Capitulated vassals should not be able to win the game--they have been defeated.
     
  4. Stylesrj

    Stylesrj Tabitha SEAL

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    Perhaps Firaxis will realise that and go make a patch so that capitulated civs must give you stuff and whenever they win, you win
     
  5. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Actually, they must give you stuff or declare war. That's not the problem--the fact that this vassal won, and he wasn't even a willing vassal, is the problem I see.
     
  6. Papa Lazarou

    Papa Lazarou you're my wife now dave!

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    im sorry but im laughing out loud here!! :lol: how frustrating! :lol: :lol: needs to be fixed.

    vassal civs should have to give you techs or face war.
     
  7. Gr3yL3gion

    Gr3yL3gion Voice of Madness

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    :lol: Thanks for sharing!
     
  8. wolfigor

    wolfigor Emperor

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    Not only your vassal steals two possible routes to vicory from you, but you also got your gf ready to say "I did tell you, didn't I?" :)

    Mate, you have all my solidariety!
    I'll nuke Gandhi in my next game just out of principle. :)


    I also got a few weird cases with vassal states, but never like you had.
     
  9. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    The only real problem I see is production and research speedfrom Ghandi. If he capitulated he must of had very few cities (most AI personalities will capitulatewith only 1-2 cities left, although Ghandi's personality nay capitulate earlier.)

    However I do not see why some people state vassals should not be allowed to win. A Vassalage agreement is Lord gives vassal protection in return for some bonuses. I havent checked yet, but can'tyou tell your vassal what to research by opening up the diplo screen and clicking lets talk about something, then clicking we would like you to research...
     
  10. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    This is not so much a thing about vassals--if it's a willing vassal arrangement, where one state says "hey, protect me" then I have no problem with it. Especially because you can terminate the agreement later and challenge him.

    This is about capitulation, where somebody wins the game because they surrendered. You shouldn't be able to be immune to being destroyed if you have surrendered because the vast majority of your country has been conquered.

    ice2k4 brings up an interesting point. I know you can tell them to attack specific cities in war, but I don't know if you can tell them what to research. I'll have to try that next time I have a vassal...

    Although, my solution: declare war on everyone who has a border with Gandhi, and then let their soldiers attack him. Don't support him, just guard your borders. And don't let him out of it by signing peace...



    P.S. I have a little trick to prevent my vassals (and my capitulated enemies) in check. I typically offer them resources, and since they always have coin to pay, they always can pay ~10-15 gold per turn per resource (sometimes up to and over 20 if it's a strategic resource). So I offer that deal to them...several times...and thus extort at least 100 gold per turn on average from each vassal. That cripples their economy, and gives mine the needed boost to overcome the increased maintenance costs and then some. That's true mercantilism right there--don't trade with others, pay for our overpriced merchandise.
     
  11. Bushface

    Bushface Deity

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    Yet more problems with a [insert profanity of your choice] vassal ! If he has capitulated then he should do whatever you want him to - give you free access to his resources (and, to be fair, gain access to yours), hand over techs on demand, build and research whatever you tell him to, pay yearly tribute, and so on. None of this business of selling him your resources, even if you do have spares, and definitely not building his own spaceship - but he could make parts for yours. And what does one do with a capitulated vassal who won't talk to you because he's peeved that you declared war on him and razed a few cities ? How do you get anything out of such a vassal except a rise in your costs ?
    But I do agree that a voluntary vassal should have more freedom than a capitulated one.
     
  12. SuperBeaverInc.

    SuperBeaverInc. Groucho

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    Sucks for you, funny for us :lol: ;)
     
  13. Godsmiter

    Godsmiter Chieftain

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    Outside the game... you win. Even though you were put in the most horrible position of being undermined by your girlfriend in a video game... SHE KNOWS ABOUT THE GAME- and that's simply outstanding.

    I've never been able to hook my current or any previous girlfriends on to the wonderful world of Civilization. I'm hesitant about having them watch me play cuz usually there's too much stuff going on and they get bored... I offer them the game (with or without the manual) to get a feel for things- but they never bite.

    You may be getting screwed over by the vassal, but in the long run, you two are sharing something beautiful.
     
  14. Hadrean

    Hadrean Hi, how are you?

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    I hate Gandhi too, that's why he is usually gone before the industrial age if he is in any of my games
     
  15. Keith_C

    Keith_C Warlord

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    My wife doesn't like to play on her own, but enjoys being Queen to my general (no smutty comments ;) ) - she's a right evil warmonger too! I'm a tech whore by nature, and will usually shoot for a space race, but she makes me turn off all victories except conquest and then build a huge army to repeatedly crush the enemy!
     
  16. weimingshi

    weimingshi Prince

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    Nothing wrong with vassal system. You guys just don't know how to use it. And why can't the vassal win? been capitulated is already a huge blow to the chance of winning, if you still got beat well you only got yourself to blame.

    Anyways, eventhough they are capitulated, they are still a country, not one of your provinces. So they should still be able to win. But as a capitulated vassal, they are at huge handicap. First master can tell them what to research. second master can demand any ressource vassal has even if they only have single 1. third if you sell your extra ressource to vassal, they will always pay top price for it, with enough ressource sold to them, you can effectively suck out all the gold vassal makes per turn, which makes them to reseach at a speed of more than 999 turns. (Personally, I kinda feel like I'm cheating the game if I sell all my extra ressources to vassal, makes game waaaaayyyyyy too easy. I usally give them for free)

    So if you know how to play with vassals, they have no chance to win what so ever.
     
  17. wioneo

    wioneo King

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    They usually only capitulate when they have two or three cities for a human. That is not so for an AI. I have never been peacefully joined, and I have not seen any benefits from vassals. They never accept demands! I demanded 10gpt and the vassal said no! A normal free civilization would accept that. What is with the huge relationship demerits, too? How am I supposed to get anything if they still hate me for almost killing them? I have yet to see an option for commanding them on what to research, I can SEE what they are researching, but not do anything about it. Vassals are completely useless at present(at least capitulated ones), and it would be much better to finish off the remaining two cities. Is it true that they offer capitulation immediately after it is available? I have checked after every city is taken, and it has never been available before they offered.
     
  18. Dnomal

    Dnomal Prince

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    I've always thught that captilaution is a bit cheap, your vassal should only be able to trade with you(like the european colnial empires), and you should be able to end teh agreement whenever you want. I'm fed up of seeing the comp vassalise a neighbour giving him loads of techs then declearing war on me! Which is terrible, and the vassal keeps in teh fight even if you manage to take half there land, becsause they love there former master who gave them all there stuff.

    Mansa Musa especially makes a terrible vassal, I always kill him. Sounds like you should do the same with Ghandi.
     
  19. Norseman2

    Norseman2 Commy from the North

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    Just use spies. When he tries to make SS parts but won't give them to you, then you sabotage all of his resources, his production, his farms, etc. Destroy his economy, cause his people to starve. If necessary, declare war with a country that neighbors him and just hold back to defend yourself.
     
  20. Sandman2012

    Sandman2012 Chieftain

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    Awesome! I love this.
     

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