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My wishlist: REF expansion

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Age of Discovery II' started by AgentTBC, May 7, 2009.

  1. AgentTBC

    AgentTBC Chieftain

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    I quit playing Civ4Col quite a while ago because the vanilla (unmodded) game was broken in a lot of ways. The Age of Discovery II mod (1.09) has rekindled my interest in the game. It's a great mod. But I think it suffers from the same problem the unmodded game did: The clear and unambiguously best strategy (for a traditional independence victory) is to refrain from producing any liberty bells at all until you have enough guns for an army that can defeat the REF stockpiled, and then stick a bunch of Elder Statesmen in (with newspapers, etc) to produce enough bells to declare independence in as few turns as possible.

    I've been playing on the hardest difficulty level under 1.09 and its pretty clear that this strategy will work pretty much every time, and work quickly.

    The only way to get around this is, in my opinion, to at least partially decouple REF expansion from liberty bell production. I would have the REF also increase based on the number of guns/soldiers you have stockpiled. That negates the incentive to avoid early liberty bells at all costs which would be a good thing; if the REF is going to expand anyway, you might as well get some liberty bells and the benefits they provide.

    I just can't get around seeing the incredibly tight correlation between liberty bells and the REF size as a fundamental problem with Colonization that AoDII (as awesome as it is) doesn't address. The game has more great bells and whistles now, and since the REF starts at a bigger size you need a slightly bigger empire to produce the $$$/guns to defeat it which is a good thing, but the whole liberty bells = bad thing is still broken.

    To sum up, the REF needs to expand for other reasons instead of or as well as just liberty bell production or the gimmicky strategy of not producing liberty bells until you are already set to declare independence will always be the optimal strategy for an independence victory.
     
  2. PiMan

    PiMan Chieftain

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    It already does expand in other ways. The more money you give the king in Europe (through any method), the bigger the REF gets.
     
  3. AgentTBC

    AgentTBC Chieftain

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    Thanks. I think that should be ramped up on harder difficulty setting then. I'm gonna declare independence pretty soon on my current Revolutionary difficulty game, and the REF is currently 24 regulars, 12 dragoons, and 12 cannon which is pretty much what it started at.
     
  4. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Chieftain

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    Exactly. That's why I've always thought it would be a good idea to link cross building to increases in REFs as well. But, so far, it's fallen on deaf ears.
     
  5. AgentTBC

    AgentTBC Chieftain

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    Linking it to cross production would be interesting but I'm not sure it would be sufficient. Getting a lot of free immigrants from Europe is convenient but unless the map is very unlucky you can usually find one or two locations that can pump out free colonists from population growth fairly rapidly.

    I'm not sure there is a single good answer to the REF=liberty bell problem.

    The only other thing that kind of annoys me is how incredibly unbalanced the difference between getting an early seasoned scout from Europe or not getting one is. It's insane.
     
  6. The Rusty Gamer

    The Rusty Gamer Chieftain

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    You could link it to ALL the various different kind of FF points. Then, no matter what your strategy, you will be affecting the REF in some way, whenever one of the sets of points reaches a threshold. You could get different explanations for the REF increase, depending on what threshold was reached.

    eg: The King is jealous of your increasing discovery of the new world (exploration points threshold) and has added to his REF.

    This way, you really feel a part of affecting the REF, no matter what you do, rather than either increading the REF arbitrarily or by one or two specific things.
     
  7. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    I've said this previously in the early days before I abandoned the game as impossible to lose at after two weeks; there needs to be a linear REF increase over time that is tied only to difficulty.
    Beyond that there could be many factors that tweak the exact numbers but the basic premise needs to be there: time is ticking and you need to build up your economic power as quick as possible in order to race it, much like you do the same with technology in CIV in order to keep up with the AI.

    If there is no linear increase as a main part of the REF size, there will always be exploits such as ruins the vanilla game completely.
     
  8. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Gliese have you tried the latest version?
     
  9. i_diavolorosso

    i_diavolorosso Chieftain

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    In 1.10 the AI expand like crazy. I tried play in pilgrim twice, and they're expanding like there's no tomorrow.I met europe first galleon in 21st turn
     
  10. kmdavis

    kmdavis Chieftain

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    Here's an idea:

    Calculate an "optimal" REF size (in 4 parts, for each type of unit) based on a variety of factors (see below) and a maximum delta, also based on factors.
    Each turn, if the current REF sizes (which can be a decimal number) != the optimal sizes, change it by up to the maximum delta.

    Factors:
    Bell Production Rate -- increases REF size
    Cross Production Rate -- increases REF size
    Rebel Sentiment -- increases REF size
    Population -- increases REF size
    Army Size -- increases REF size
    Army Strength -- increases REF size
    Navy Size -- increases REF navy size
    Navy Strength -- increases REF navy size
    Production Rate -- increases REF size & delta
    Goods Traded -- increases REF size & delta
    # of Wars -- increases REF size & delta
    War Weariness -- increases REF size, decreases REF delta
    # of years at peace -- decreases REF size
    Strength of Enemies -- increases REF size
    # of Privateers of any nation -- increases REF navy size
    # of FFs -- increases REF delta
    FF Points -- increases REF size
    probably a couple more factors

    Also, a portion (maybe 1/4) of the REF should be deployed to the New World, in rotation. During peace, some of the MoW should be on patrol, carrying soldiers (not dragoons). During war (with other europeans, not indians), a few of those MoW will drop their marines in your territory or your enemies territory, if they happen to pass near by, and any new MoW to arrive will carry some dragoons.
     

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