n0x-02 -- OCC Cultural Victory

[Conroe]

feel free to invite a known additional player.

Fine by me. Everyone else agree?

Welcome aboard, Chris!


Roster Check:
n0xie - MIA
Conroe
ruff-hi - Just Played
Methos - UP
ChrTh - On Deck

How do you feel about playing after Methos?

 

[ChrTh]

Thanks

Going after Methos is fine. I just need some time to review what's gone on so far.

 

[ruff_hi]

Sure - great to have you on board. No 'just press enters' and you have to go back and read all the really big red text.

 

[ChrTh]

Sure - great to have you on board. No 'just press enters' and you have to go back and read all the really big red text.

Will do!

...unless GreyFox joins the roster

 

[ChrTh]

Took a look at the favorite civics: we're in luck, both Gandhi and Frederick are big on Universal Sufferage ... so how close are we to it?

 

[Methos]

I am not sure why we have a farm outside the BFC.

Are you talking about the irrigated corn?

Turn 0, 1200 AD: Everything looks good.

Turn 2, 1220 AD: Genghis is willing to talk, but ruff-hi indicated we need to wait seven turns before suing for peace. So I decide to wait.

Turn 4, 1240 AD:
IBT: Cathy comes calling and cancels our Copper deal.

Turn 5, 1250 AD: I can’t seem to get a good deal anywhere else, so I pay Cathy 20 gpt for her spare Copper.
IBT: Fredrick comes calling and offers Optics for Civil Service and 30 gold. I agree to the deal.
National Epic>Great Lighthouse- I decide to go with this wonder for both the culture and the extra two trade routes. For an OCC it’s a great build.

Turn 7, 1270 AD: Chaung-Tzu (great prophet) is born in London. I use him to build the Confucius Holy Shrine. It costs us Drama to get the Khan to sign peace.

Turn 8, 1280 AD: All military units have been upgraded, so I set research at 90% which gets us Military Tradition in one turn.
IBT: Military Tradition>Astronomy ???

I stopped on my turn nine as I wasn’t sure how to continue. I couldn’t remember what tech we wanted to go for next so chose Astronomy for now. We can also discuss who we wish to sign a DP with. Neither Gandhi nor Fredrick are willing to sign a DP with us, but Cathy is.

@ChrTh: Play 11 turns, so we can keep it at an even century.

Roster:
n0xie- MIA
Conroe- On Deck
ruff-hi
Methos- Just Played
ChrTh- Up

 

[Conroe]

Turn 7, 1270 AD: Chaung-Tzu (great prophet) is born in London. I use him to build the Confucius Holy Shrine.

IBT: Military Tradition>Astronomy ???

I stopped on my turn nine as I wasn't sure how to continue. I couldn't remember what tech we wanted to go for next so chose Astronomy for now.

Unfortunately, n0xie's research suggestions stopped at Military Tradition and the signing of a Defensive Pact. I guess we could head for whatever the tech that enables Permanant Aliances? Is Astronomy required for that? Personally, on this map I just don't see Astronomy being all that important, unless it is required for another tech. The Observatory, I guess, is enabled by Astronomy ... hmmm, maybe we do stick with Astronomy ...

We can also discuss who we wish to sign a DP with. Neither Gandhi nor Fredrick are willing to sign a DP with us, but Cathy is.

The problem is, I don't think Cathy is all that inclined to go for a cultural victory. And, if neither Gandhi nor Frederick will sign a DP, then they sure won't sign a PA.

IIRC, the only diplomacy hits we were taking from Gandhi were religion. Maybe we should try switching off our state religion and see if he will sign a DP then?

Or, maybe we start spamming Confucian Missionaries and see if we can get Gandhi to convert. That might be better.

 

[ruff_hi]

Are you talking about the irrigated corn?

maybe - only noticed from space, not from in close. If it is corn, then ok - good farming job.

Turn 2, 1220 AD: Genghis is willing to talk, but ruff-hi indicated we need to wait seven turns before suing for peace. So I decide to wait.

Hmm - the XML setup for Khan says that he will not talk for 10 turns after war is declared. I was happy to sign peace as soon as possible as long as it doesn't hurt our relationship with Fred. I was hoping that we would be at war for a bit (build Fred +ve for war) and maybe get some units promoted.

IBT: Cathy comes calling and cancels our Copper deal.
Turn 5, 1250 AD: I can’t seem to get a good deal anywhere else, so I pay Cathy 20 gpt for her spare Copper.
IBT: Fredrick comes calling and offers Optics for Civil Service and 30 gold. I agree to the deal.

How many units did we get upgraded? I would quite this deal as soon as our units are upgraded.

National Epic>Great Lighthouse

I meant to suggest another temple so that we can work some more priests and get more prophet points.

Turn 7, 1270 AD: Chaung-Tzu (great prophet) is born in London. I use him to build the Confucius Holy Shrine.

Ha - we didn't need the extra temple.

I stopped on my turn nine as I wasn’t sure how to continue. I couldn’t remember what tech we wanted to go for next so chose Astronomy for now. We can also discuss who we wish to sign a DP with. Neither Gandhi nor Fredrick are willing to sign a DP with us, but Cathy is.

Check who Cathy is friends / enemies with. If she is not either of Fred or Gandhi's worst enemy, then we can sign a DP with Cathy without hurting our relationship with Fred or Gandhi. We can sign more than one DP so we should start working on the others.

Check Fred and Gandhi's fav civics and change to them. Swap to their religions or no-religion.

I was playing an OCC trying to get a PA with Cathy and she said NO. I swapped to her civics, checked again and she said YES. Easy!

Tech-wise - head for communism or facism.

 

[ChrTh]

Check Fred and Gandhi's fav civics and change to them. Swap to their religions or no-religion.

No one reads my posts ...

I got it. I'm going to head towards Democracy, with will give us Universal Sufferage, and will get us Nationalism along the way (for the PAs).

 

[ruff_hi]

No one reads my posts ...

I did read it - don't you know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Actually - my post should have been - "swap to the civics they are currently using (you get positive modifiers for that) and, if possible, swap to their fav civic (bonus positive modifiers)"

 

[ChrTh]

I'm pretty sure (say, 90%) that you don't get any positive modifiers for choosing the same Civic an AI, only for the Favorite. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[ruff_hi]

It looks like you are correct. Lifted the following from the XML ...

<TEXT>
	<Tag>TXT_KEY_MISC_ATTITUDE_FAVORITE_CIVIC</Tag>
	<English>%D1: "You have wisely chosen your Civics."</English>
	<French>%D1 : "Vous avez choisi votre doctrine avec sagesse."</French>
	<German>%D1: "Ihr habt Eure Staatsformen weise gewählt!"</German>
	<Italian>%D1: "Hai scelto con saggezza le tue forme di governo."</Italian>
	<Spanish>%D1: "Habéis escogido con prudencia vuestros principios."</Spanish>
</TEXT>

Another thing to keep in mind - my multiple defensive pact idea might be wrong ...

<TEXT>
	<Tag>TXT_KEY_MISC_ATTITUDE_RIVAL_DEFENSIVE_PACT</Tag>
	<English>%D1: "We are upset that you have signed Defensive Pacts with our rivals."</English>

 

[Methos]

I believe I've read somewhere, can't remember where, that you can have multiple DP's it just takes a long time to sign a second one. I also recall it takes a long time in a DP before your ally is willing to sign a PA with you. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.

Before we decide to sign a DP with Cathy, how is her cultural build up going?

 

[ruff_hi]

I believe I've read somewhere, can't remember where, that you can have multiple DP's it just takes a long time to sign a second one. I also recall it takes a long time in a DP before your ally is willing to sign a PA with you. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.

Before we decide to sign a DP with Cathy, how is her cultural build up going?

Don't know about the second question. Re the first one ... in some OCCs I have been playing, I have signed a few DP with Cathy and by the time I have researched the tech for PA, I could ask for a PA straight off.

 

[ChrTh]

Ok, I'm in feast mode, so I'm going to be more text-heavy than pic-heavy this turn.

The First Question: What to do about Cathy? I check out her diplo skillz:
Gandhi, JC and HC are pleased, Freddy and GK are cautious. So it looks like there wouldn't be imminent war if we signed with her. Culture-wise she's about even with Freddy, of course, Gandhi is light years ahead of anybody.

Gandhi doesn't like us enough to do a defensive pact. I'm guessing Religion is the culprit. Personally, I'd rather wait on Gandhi to want to switch to Confused or us to switch to Hinduism rather than Pact with Cathy, especially since Cathy borders everybody and thus is more likely to get embroiled in war.

Tech-wise: It's Fascism (not Nationalism--my mistake) and Communism that give us PA. Democracy gets us Universal Sufferage so I'm going to head there (thus switching research to Constitution, the only pre-req--due in 5). Astronomy is needed to get to Communism (Astronomy > Scientific Method > Communism), but the longer we have US the better the bonus we'll get from Gandhi and Freddy.

Great Lightouse is due in 2, will build Missionaries afterwards.

Turn 0 -- 1290 AD

Nothing to change, press Enter.

Turn 2 -- 1310 AD

Great Lighthouse is built, start Confused Missionary.

Turn 4 -- 1330 AD

London: Confused Missionary > Confused Missionary

Turn 5 -- 1340 AD

Gandhi wants us to trade Printing Press for Engineering and 210 gold. I agree.

Constitution comes in. I start on Democracy, due in 6.

London: Confused Missionary > Maceman (since it'll be done in 1 turn, like the deal with Cathy)

Turn 6 -- 1350 AD

Mace is built, start Confused Missionary.

Cancel the Copper Deal, we're running 100% science at +12gpt.

Turn 7 -- 1360 AD

Confused Missionary > Market.

Gandhi has completed the Spiral Minaret.

Turn 8 -- 1370 AD

JC demands 100 gold! Since he has gunpowder, I give it to him.

We spawn a Great Artist in London ... I sleep him.

Turn 9 -- 1380 AD

Confucianism spreads in Vilcas.

I spread Confucianism to Cuman.

Turn 11 -- 1400 AD

Democracy comes in, start Astronomy, due in 6.

Market is built, start Statue of Liberty, obviously this is vetoable.

I spread Confucianism in Lahore.

Ok, it's time to revolt to US ... I don't do it because I'm not sure whether we want to add Free Religion and/or Emancipation to the mix (will take 2 turns to do all 3, but only 1 turn to do 2). Free Religion will get us to +10 with Gandhi, and I'd be surprised if he wouldn't do a Defensive Pact after that.

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/SG_OCC_CV_AD-1400.Civ4SavedGame

 

[ruff_hi]

Turn 7, 1270 AD: Chaung-Tzu (great prophet) is born in London. I use him to build the Confucius Holy Shrine. It costs us Drama to get the Khan to sign peace.

Why sign peace - was there any mongol units near us?

Ok, it's time to revolt to US ... I don't do it because I'm not sure whether we want to add Free Religion and/or Emancipation to the mix (will take 2 turns to do all 3, but only 1 turn to do 2). Free Religion will get us to +10 with Gandhi, and I'd be surprised if he wouldn't do a Defensive Pact after that.

I would go Free Religion and US but hold off on Emancipation unless we have some cottages, etc that need to grow.

Roster:
n0xie- MIA
Conroe- up
ruff-hi - On Deck
Methos
ChrTh - Just played 11

 

[Conroe]

Ok, it's time to revolt to US ... I don't do it because I'm not sure whether we want to add Free Religion and/or Emancipation to the mix (will take 2 turns to do all 3, but only 1 turn to do 2). Free Religion will get us to +10 with Gandhi, and I'd be surprised if he wouldn't do a Defensive Pact after that.

I don't see us getting a whole lot of bang from Emancipation. We have Globe Theatre, so no happiness penalty. We only built 4 cottages and the youngest one will be a town in 17 turns. I'm going to skip Emancipation and the 2 turn anarchy and only go with Free Religion and Universal Suffrage.

As for the Statue of Liberty build, I would rather save the wonders for our PA partner. It is my understanding that our city will NOT count as one of the 3 legendary cities. Hopefully someone can confirm or deny this rumor ...

Next, I take a look at the culture graph. Gandhi certainly has a commanding lead. We are in 2nd with Frederick trailing towards the bottom of the stack. I'm thinking we need to cut Frederick loose.



Below is our scorecard with Gandhi. It is pretty clean, except for the religion. As ChrTh noted, he does not like us well enough to accept a Defensive Pact. The civics changes will hopefully take care of that. Gandhi has also redlined convert to Confucianism, as too few of his people follow that faith. I'll try and crank out some Missionaries to do something about that.



Turn 0 - 1400AD: First order of business is some resource trading. We are currently selling furs to Catherine for 2gpt. That is a sweet deal she's getting on those fur coats. I renegotiate it for 5gpt, but she is still stealing them from us.

We are also trading our clams to Gandhi for his sheep. This is a net zero deal for us, other than the diplomatic points. Since we have an unconnected fish resource in our waters, I renegotiate this deal to trade our fish for his sheep. It is still net zero, but will get us +2 health when I connect up that other fish. And lastly, London starts on a Work Boat to do just that.

IBT: Herodotus interjects with his thoughts about the most cultured civilizations ...



Turn 1 - 1410AD: London builds the Work Boat and I start on a Confucian Missionary.

I also remember that I forgot to change the civics! I do so now, and relations improve across the board. All except for Capac, where we drop to Annoyed. I then sign a DP with Gandhi ...



IBT: Huayna Capac cancels open borders with us. We are now his worst enemy.

Turn 2 - 1420AD: The anarchy is over ...

IBT: Genghis Khan demands Engineering from us. A tough decision I have to make. Normally, we do not want to do any trading with him. It appears that we have been declining his demands in the past. He is already annoyed with us and I'm afraid that if I decline, it will throw him over the edge to furious. Khan and Capac are the only 2 that do not know Engineering. Would our DP with Gandhi be enough to keep him from declaring? I'm not sure, so I decide to err on the cautious side and I give him his precious tech. A decision I would later come to regret.

Turn 3 - 1430AD: London trains a Confucian Missionary and starts on another one. Meanwhile, one of our Missionaries fails to spread Confucianism to Bombay.

Our Work Boat throws out the fishing nets for +2 health.

Turn 4 - 1440AD: London trains a Confucian Missionary and starts on another one.

Turn 5 - 1450AD: London trains our 3rd and final missionary. I start us on a Longbowman.

Evidently giving into Khan's demand was a major bad move. We now have a -1 from Gandhi for trading with his worst enemy. I know we aren't supposed to trade with Khan, but I was under the impression that giving into demands did not count as trading.

Turn 6 - 1460AD: We train a Longbowman and start on a Catapult next. Frankly, our weak military is making me a bit nervous. Capac is annoyed and has 3 cities on our border, one of which will soon be auto-razed by our culture. Here is the current power graph:



Ruff Hi's girlfriend is willing to sign a DP with us. I'd much rather have one with JC, since he is number 2 in troops. However, Cathy is not a bad second choice. Cathy and Gandhi are also pleased with each other, so I go ahead and sign the deal. We lose some points with Frederick, as he and Cathy are not sweet on each other.



As an interesting side note, while Cathy was willing to sign a DP with us, she "didn't like us well enough" to trade world maps.

IBT: Frederick demands Drama from us. I'm concerned about how Cathy feels about him, but I don't think he is her worst enemy. So, I go ahead and give it to him. He is back to pleased with us.

Turn 7 - 1470AD: Astronomy is learned. I'm tempted to start us on Gunpowder, but I stick to the plan and go with Scientific Method.

Our first Catapult is built and I start on an Observatory next. Since Astronomy obsoleted the Colossus, I do some MM in the city to not work the 1 commerce ocean tiles.

Confucianism has been spread to Delhi.

Turn 8 - 1480AD:

Turn 9 - 1490AD: Our 3rd Great Artist is born. I sleep him with the other two. Meanwhile, Confucianism is spread to the now Indian city of Circassian.

IBT: Gandhi begins a golden age with the completion of the Taj Mahal.

Turn 10 - AD: Our last missionary arrives in Calcutta, but has no movement left. It is one of the 3 remaining Indian cities to accept Confucianism.

Notes: London's Observatory will be done next turn, with Scientific Method another turn after that. After learning Communism, I really think we should go after Chemistry to pick up the Grenadier. The military situation is making me a bit nervous.

Here is a look at London:



And before you yell at me, Ruff, I did read the big red letters. I did think about your warning before giving in to Khan's demand. I really, honestly, truly believed that giving into demands did not count as trading with a worst enemy. We are taking a -1 from Gandhi for it, leaving us with a net +9 overall. We are not getting any "favorite civic" credit, yet, though. I'm really sorry about the fubar.

And the save ...

 

[ChrTh]

-1 is ok, don't kill yourself over it. We'll be getting the Favorite Civic bonus soon enough, and the -1 will go away at some point.

I'm pretty sure our city will count towards the cultural win, but correct me if I'm wrong

Since we're Free Religion, there's no need to spread Confucianism in India as much ... I'd rather spread it to closer cities and get extra turns of gold.

We don't have to get Communism right after SciMeth, we can do Chemistry if we need to, we have time.

 

[ruff_hi]

Roster:
n0xie- MIA
Conroe- just played
ruff-hi - up (@Khan - bring it on baby!)
Methos - on deck
ChrTh

Yup - giving in to demands is the same as trading. You get +1 from Khan (giving goods) and -1 from Gandhi ... not to worry as we already have the DP.

Finally ... shhh ... re the girl friend crack!

 

[Conroe]

Since we're Free Religion, there's no need to spread Confucianism in India as much ... I'd rather spread it to closer cities and get extra turns of gold.

My thinking is that if Gandhi is hesitant about signing a PA, we may need to coax him to converting to Confucianism for the extra religion points that we would get. It would be nice if every one of his cities are already confused should the need arise.