Najaf safe, but is Falluja aiming for a comeback

[vonork]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29province.htm

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 28 - While American troops have been battling Islamic militants to an uncertain outcome in Najaf, the Shiite holy city, events in two Sunni Muslim cities that stand astride the crucial western approaches to Baghdad have moved significantly against American plans to build a secular democracy in Iraq.

Both of the cities, Falluja and Ramadi, and much of Anbar Province, are now controlled by fundamentalist militias, with American troops confined mainly to heavily protected forts on the desert's edge. What little influence the Americans have is asserted through wary forays in armored vehicles, and by laser-guided bombs that obliterate enemy safe houses identified by scouts who penetrate militant ranks. Even bombing raids appear to strengthen the fundamentalists, who blame the Americans for scores of civilian deaths.

American efforts to build a government structure around former Baath Party stalwarts - officials of Saddam Hussein's army, police force and bureaucracy who were willing to work with the United States - have collapsed. Instead, the former Hussein loyalists, under threat of beheadings, kidnappings and humiliation, have mostly resigned or defected to the fundamentalists, or been killed. Enforcers for the old government, including former Republican Guard officers, have put themselves in the service of fundamentalist clerics they once tortured at Abu Ghraib.

Several pages if you follow the link...

 

[FriendlyFire]

Dont be too alarmed the US have a good 1.5 - 2 years before the insurgents start to become an effective fighting force. (If Afganistan is anything to go by)

This is really the turning point.

Remember the days when every time you hear an Iraqi talk on TV you had to remember that they are talking with a Mukhabarat minder looking at them noting every word? We are back to that place.

You have to be careful about what you say about al-Sadir. Their hands reach every where and you don't want to be on their **** list. Every body, even the GC is very careful how they formulate their sentences and how they describe Sadir's Militias. They are thugs, thugs thugs. There you have it.

I was listening to a representative of al-sadir on TV saying that the officers at police stations come to offer their help and swear allegiance. Habibi, if they don't they will get killed and their police station "liberated". Have we forgotten the threat al-Sadir issued that Iraqi security forces should not attack their revolutionary brothers, or they will have to suffer the consequences.

Dear US administration,
Welcome to the next level. Please don't act surprised and what sort of timing is that: planning to go on a huge attack on the west of Iraq and provoking a group you know very well (I pray to god you knew) that they are trouble makers.

Oh and before I forget.........Help please.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Time to do some carpet bombing.

 

[Azadre]

Time to do some carpet bombing.

Why exactly? We are fighting FOR Iraqis, not against them. Unless...

 

[Sanaz]

Time to do some carpet bombing.

Yes, because the new "free" Iraq needs their infrastructure destroyed even more, so the US can again fail to fix it as promised. What a sad joke this whole thing is. Is there still anyone who thinks this Iraq occupation was a good thing? Things aren't going to get better, only worse.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

"American plans to build a secular democracy"

Unless the people of Iraq choose a secular government, it can in no way be democratic.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

From what I've heard, somebody in Washington(Either its Whitehouse-based or Congress-Based) have kept the military in restraint. Like Vietnam, our efforts in Iraq are useless because politics has entered the war.

Let the Generals command the troops, not the politians.

 

[Azadre]

From what I've heard, somebody in Washington(Either its Whitehouse-based or Congress-Based) have kept the military in restraint. Like Vietnam, our efforts in Iraq are useless because politics has entered the war.

Let the Generals command the troops, not the politians.

How would the Generals do it differently?/Would the Generals have even went in?

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I don't know, I'm not a military person. They'd be fighting to win though, and political considerations would fall by the wayside.

 

[zjl56]

This Sadr guy is really just trying to get power. If he really wanted to help the Iraqi people he would just run in the election. But he just had to go around and start a rebellion that is threatening the government of Iraq.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

This Sadr guy is really just trying to get power. If he really wanted to help the Iraqi people he would just run in the election. But he just had to go around and start a rebellion that is threatening the government of Iraq.

An election that the American's wouldn't let him have any chance in?

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

because hes killed our soldiers...no. If the soldiers were aloud to do their job Sadr would be dead.

 

[Sanaz]

I don't know, I'm not a military person. They'd be fighting to win though, and political considerations would fall by the wayside.

And this is the problem with starting a war of occupation with no clear goal, and no clear definition of "winning". If the US were imperialistic in the traditional sense, they would have taken over and installed their own government, controlled the economic, and had a plan for assimilation to the US. Since that wasn't the stated goal, and because of politics far outside the borders of Iraq, the US can't do that. The stated goal was to make Iraq free and safe, and that has failed completely. To do that, the military people suggested a much larger presence. This was rejected by the civilian leadership (Rumsfeld and company). The fact that Rumsfeld has a job and has been complimented by Bush says a lot about this administration and it's actual goals.

A democracy in Iraq would probably be a Shia government, not Sunni, but the US won't allow that. The US can not help create a true 'democracy" in Iraq, because it would probably not be US friendly. Imagine a united Iraq and Iran? That would ruin the careers of many American politicians. They probably realize now that they really didn't want a free Iraq after all, and should have called their little war game something different than "operation Iraqi freedom". This lying to the troops and the American people is why I consider Bush and company guilty of war crimes and treason. But again, I am extreme in my beliefs that what Bush and his boys have done is not a minor mistake, but is a calculated plan to set America down an irreversible path (which I strongly oppose). Bush may be a dope, but his advisory team is extremely intelligent.

 

[Uncle Sam]

At this point i don't care if we just blow the hell out of cities filled with insurgents. God knows we're not gonna win the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraqis, might as well make them too afraid to harbor/aid insurgents when we call down strikes on sympathizers homes/neighborhoods.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

At this point i don't care if we just blow the hell out of cities filled with insurgents. God knows we're not gonna win the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraqis, might as well make them too afraid to harbor/aid insurgents when we call down strikes on sympathizers homes/neighborhoods.

You may as well just paint a big bullseye on the Sears Tower with the words "terrorists: hit here"

 

[Sanaz]

At this point i don't care if we just blow the hell out of cities filled with insurgents. God knows we're not gonna win the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraqis, might as well make them too afraid to harbor/aid insurgents when we call down strikes on sympathizers homes/neighborhoods.

Then why is the US there at all? If our soldiers aren't fighting and dying for a good purpose, why bother? If civilians are killed to "teach them a lesson", that is the most horrible reason. They'd be better off with Hussein.

 

[rilnator]

Time to do some carpet bombing.

Good idea! You can start with Washington, then New York, Chicago, Boston.............oh bugger it! Any order will do.

 

[rilnator]

At this point i don't care if we just blow the hell out of cities filled with insurgents. God knows we're not gonna win the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraqis, might as well make them too afraid to harbor/aid insurgents when we call down strikes on sympathizers homes/neighborhoods.

You should be on the general staff! I mean that plan obviously worked in Vietnam, so use it again!