Naming of National Wonders

[Kjotleik]

Which "true story", be it a novel, film, or other expression, do you think of as most American? ( Despite it's vast international appeal, Bay Watch is not a true story.)

Most typically American expression...

Historically speaking.... hmmm. Perhaps the irony in that the first European settlers fled from religious persecution and oppression, only to be conquering the land of, and subduing the, native americans (whom already lived in North America, by the way) to their "european" lifestyle .

The oppressed becomes the oppressor... and a great nation was born...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. Nor do I try to make fun of Americans. Facts are facts, no matter how embarrasing they may sound in modern times...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[Daraexus]

It's not about picking a "true story". Every epic has fictional elements, the embellishment the autors make of the facts in order to make the story more heroic, more patriotic. Now, I think the best choice should be an epic that tries to evocate in one way or another the liberation from England. The independence war tends to be for us, americans (I'm from latin-america) the time with the most epic stories about battles and heros.

I invite you to read the Colombian anthem as an examploe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anthem_of_Colombia). The anthem is indeed an example of an epic and it is mostly about our independence from Spain.

So, being stated that... what about the Paul Revere's Ride by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Agreed. Not necessarily true story. I doubt that any accepted historical account would be judged as 'true' by more than half the actual participants anyway.

Unfortunately, looking at American history the things that have effects similar to a 'heroic epic', ie improved military production, all seem to be crushing defeats. "Remember the Maine". "Remember Pearl Harbor". "9/11".

 

[Daraexus]

You did win the independence war, so, that counts as a victory.

Perhaps Washington crossing the Delaware to liberate Boston? Is there an epic about that?

9/11 was not a war, was just a terrorist attack. Pearl Harbor was an attack from the Japanese, at the end, you made the Japanese Empire capitulate and the emperor resign his title as "divine envoy of the gods". Losing a few battles doesn't mean that you lost that war, Wars are full of sacrifices and defeats that just make the victory more "glorious". (well, some victories).

 

[rah]

Rosie the Riveter
For all the increased production in WWII factories staffed by mostly women.

 

[Olson]

Adding to this problem you have civs that in reality never built anything that would be an equivalent to some national wonders. What do you call the Ironworks if you are the Mongols? What do you call Oxford University? Globe Theater?

The simple effective solution would be having rename capability once they were built, so 'Wall Street' could be renamed as the XXXXXXX Stock Exchange with the appropriate city name. Same with Oxford University, so the player could call it University of XXXXXX, or if the preferred Harvard or Yale...or my personal favorite NYSU. But is renaming buildings in play remotely possible, or a hardcode issue?

This would be good for world wonders as well. I'd certainly prefer that my Vikings had a Statue of Odin instead of a Statue of Zeus.

As for the first paragraph: Given that Civ is an alternate history game who's to say, given an alternate history, the Mongols wouldn't have built a university called Oxford (since Oxford is simply a ford in a river frequently crossed by oxen).

2nd & 3rd paragraph: Very good idea...renaming like one can for cities and units.

[Edit: see Post #28..."True Story"...funny]

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Rosie the Riveter
For all the increased production in WWII factories staffed by mostly women.

Good one.

 

[Daraexus]

As for the first paragraph: Given that Civ is an alternate history game who's to say, given an alternate history, the Mongols wouldn't have built a university called Oxford (since Oxford is simply a ford in a river frequently crossed by oxen).

It loses something when every civilization existent can build an Oxford University... Picture the next situation:

-Mother, Father, I've been accepted in Oxford!!-

-Our Oxford?-

-ehm... no, Mongol Oxford-

-Oh my... what a dissapointment you are for us, son.

True Story.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It loses something when every civilization existent can build an Oxford University... Picture the next situation:

-Mother, Father, I've been accepted in Oxford!!-

-Our Oxford?-

-ehm... no, Mongol Oxford-

-Oh my... what a dissapointment you are for us, son.

True Story.

Could be worse. In most games when the other civs are building a national university Montezuma's ox-ford is still just a place where oxen cross the river.

I've been accepted at ox-ford!

As a student?

No as a herdsman.

 

[Daraexus]

-That's better than going to Mongol Oxford, tough.

xD

 

[Lennier]

Remember, the epic NWs are available at Literature.

Well, it's ok by me if you think Star Wars is best, no big deal on my part. But I did actually think about Starfleet HQ at San Francisco and the fact that James Kirk himself was/is/will be born in Iowa, USA... just to name the two most important things from Star Trek canon.

I cannot say I know too much about Star Wars canon, but does it have any connection to the American continent at all?

And I have seen that Geredis already posted about the Vikings... I have nothing to add to that without doing some research....if I can figure something out I may post again.

The problem with Star Trek as one of the epics is that it is not an epic. (If I thought long enough, I might come up with some individual episodes or movies that do follow the epic form, but Star Trek is an episodic form.)

The epic form has been developed independently by many civilizations. The important qualities of the epic form include:

* Beginning in medias res (the middle of things). (Disqualifies Star Trek.)
* The setting is vast, covering many nations, the world or the universe. (Star Trek passes.)
* Shows divine/supernatural intervention on human affairs. ("Use the Force, Luke!")
* Features heroes that embody the values of the civilization. (Star Trek passes.)
* Often features the tragic hero's descent into the Underworld or hell. (Anakin Skywalker's decent into the Dark Side, or Luke Skywalker's confrontation with Darth Vader and Darth Sidius.)

Just some possible suggestions for Vikings... check them out, if you like...
[Heroic Epic]
Heroic Epic: Operation Gunnerside (Sabotage of Nazi-Germany's heavy water plant at Rjukan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

Operation Gunnerside may very well be an epic military operation, but it's not an epic poem or story. (But I bet someone could write an epic poem about it--that poem might qualify.)

I've been thinking that the effects of the National and Heroic Epics should be switched.

Consider the Greeks. The natural choices for their epics would be The Illiad and The Odyssey. But which would be National and which Heroic? The Illiad is about the conclusion of a war in which the Greek city-states united behind a single king to defeat the Trojans. That sounds like a national epic to me. The Odyssey is about a hero bringing himself and his crew back home after that war. That sounds like a heroic epic to me. However, if you think which epic would inspire military training (Heroic Epic effect), it would be The Illiad (about war) and which one would inspire more heros (great people) to emerge (National Epic effect), it would be The Odyssey.

 

[Rusty Edge]

It's not about picking a "true story". Every epic has fictional elements, the embellishment the autors make of the facts in order to make the story more heroic, more patriotic. Now, I think the best choice should be an epic that tries to evocate in one way or another the liberation from England. The independence war tends to be for us, americans (I'm from latin-america) the time with the most epic stories about battles and heros.


So, being stated that... what about the Paul Revere's Ride by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow?

Actually, I think that is perfect. A Revolutionary War tale written to rally people at the outbreak of the Civil War Thank You.

Revere was one of 3 horsemen, whose name rhymed best.
From Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Revere's_Ride

The majority of criticism, however, notes that Longfellow gave sole credit to Revere for the collective achievements of three riders (as well as the other riders whose names do not survive to history). In fact, Revere and William Dawes rode from Boston to Lexington to warn John Hancock and Samuel Adams that British soldiers were marching from Boston to Lexington to arrest Hancock and Adams and seize the weapons stores in Concord. Revere and Dawes then rode toward Concord, where the militia's arsenal was hidden. They were joined by Samuel Prescott, a doctor who happened to be in Lexington. Revere, Dawes, and Prescott were stopped by British troops in Lincoln on the road to nearby Concord. Prescott and Dawes escaped, but Revere was detained and questioned and then escorted at gunpoint by three British officers back to Lexington.[16] Of the three riders, only Prescott arrived at Concord in time to warn the militia there.

You did win the independence war, so, that counts as a victory.

Perhaps Washington crossing the Delaware to liberate Boston? Is there an epic about that?

There are several paintings. It was not Boston. It was an attack near Trenton, New Jersey.

Actually he crossed the Delaware on a cold Christmas night to surprise Hessian mercenaries the next morning, who Washington knew would be in their barracks hung over from celebrating. The Delaware separates Pennsylvania and New Jersey. It was a hard crossing and march, but the victory was quick an decisive.

Most importantly, it was a victory when many thought hope for the revolution was lost.

The 2000 film "The Crossing " tells the story pretty well.

 

[Daraexus]

Paul Revere's ride has fictional elements as well, and mythifies the heroism of american during the independence war. Despite the embellishment it is a better Heroic Epic than a Sci-fi story. (Fictional but in another level). And of course, whether Paul Revere rode alone shouting "The British are coming..." (Which probably didn't happen that way and he didn't shout all the way to Hancock, or dozens of fellow horseriders gave the alarm, it is a great story nevertheless.

About Washington crossing the Delaware, you're right, I overlooked the essential details. My mistake. I'm not that well-versed about north-american story, but I still like the subject and every new piece of information and facts is very much welcome

So, we have the North American Empire Heroic Epic, haven't we?