raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
Absolutely and we need to figure out how it would combine e.g. with Techs or if it would replace it.
Nation specific Unique Units [IMPLEMENTED]
- Thread starter raystuttgart
- Start date
Atlas627
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2011
- Messages
- 2,930
Ok, this might be a difference with Civ6, then. Uniques don't need to replace anything in Civ6, so you can just add an extra unit. If Uniques MUST replace something because that is how Civ4 works, then I agree that my suggestion is annoying for the reason you suggest here.
Yes, I know this. One of the units I suggested is a Land Cargo unit, and another is mostly meant for exploration, though it can do combat.
Well, the Units I suggested do have common units that are similar. The Sea Dog is like a Privateer, the Coureur des Bois is like any other Land Cargo unit, and the Bandeirante performs a similar function to any Human turned Scout. I am suggesting making them not replacements because that way they can be made not-strictly-better than the version they 'replace', and you can choose between them and the vanilla unit. If you never have to choose between using them or not, then it is just a Unique Ability.
If Civ4 requires that they be replacements, then yeah I suppose they have to be replacements. And they could still be not-strictly-better, but if people don't like Uniques to ever be worse than the vanilla then they can also just be better. If this is the case, then I would change my suggestions so the Sea Dog replaces the Privateer, the Coureur des Bois replaces the Wagon Train (and costs only tools), and the Bandeirante replaces the Seasoned Scout (or if you can make a Unique Profession, then the Scout Profession).
I'm not sure if you're talking about a theme problem or a gameplay problem or a technical problem, here. If theme, then a) you already have Human Units like the Line Infantry that don't transform and b) units like Wagon Trains obviously have humans in them thematically, so I'm not sure what the problem is with having a crew of humans who weren't given a wagon. If gameplay, then what about making Unique Professions? Is that possible? And if it is technical, then what determines whether a unit is human or not?
For the same reason I am suggesting Unique Units should not be replacements. It is no more interesting than making a Unique Ability that says "your Town Halls produce 2 Furs". At that point, is it worth your effort to add the extra graphics? (Even if you let enemies capture it, the player's own uniques are no more interesting. It just makes opponent's Uniques actually matter to the player, which is an improvement, sure)
We probalby misundersand each other.
Yeah. Thank you for continuing to talk about it so we can figure out what we mean!
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
@Atlas627
I am not talking about "Technical Stuff" only.
I am mainly talking about "good gameplay design" (as I personally consider it).
A) I do not consider it to be good gameplay to have 2 Units (for the same Civ) that basically do the same and are equally valuable for the same purpose. (The choice does not matter then.)
It just increases "masses of alternatives" (which we already have a lot) but it does not really enhance gameplay.
B) But yes, there are also some technical aspects in features, e.g. "Education", "Learning by Doing", "Capturing", ... where it needs to be exactly clear which Unit is (technically) created.
These things more or less happen with a 1:1 rule (e.g. Profession -> Expert) - which can be interpreted Civ specifically though - by using "Unique Units".
C) Every Unit should have a clear unique purpose (and usage) in the game. Basically having something like "an evolution" (from weak to strong) or a "stone - paper - scissor" system.
Availability vs. power as well as costs vs. benefits as well as advantages vs. disadvantages need to make sense to add value to gameplay.
----
Good concept design does not mean that we should simply dump anything we technically can into the mod.
(I have seen that often enough in other mods and hated to play them.)
There are many aspects to be considered - some are a little hard to explain in a few short posts.
Also this needs to match the "vision" / the "big picture" / other planned features for the mod.
With "Unique Units" and "Unique Buildings" I am in fact trying to give players an enhancement of Civ specific strategies that they care about.
And I am also trying to add a new gameplay element which is capturing those to add these "specific enhancements" to your own Civ.
I am not trying to simply give them lots of alternatives that actually do not really matter for gameplay.
(In fact I am trying to clean some of that up by transforming useless Units to useful Unique Units which includes rebalancing them.)
There simply is a big difference between useless / unmeaningful content (that players hardly ever use) and useful / meaningful content (that players really care about).
Technically however we can add whatever Units we want and as many as we want - but I do not feel it will make the mod better to "just have more" Units that do not have a justification / purpose.
To summarize the idea:
(What I consider meaningful might and most likely will be considered unmeaningful by somebody else.)
Finding a consense in such things is not always easy ...
I am not talking about "Technical Stuff" only.
I am mainly talking about "good gameplay design" (as I personally consider it).
A) I do not consider it to be good gameplay to have 2 Units (for the same Civ) that basically do the same and are equally valuable for the same purpose. (The choice does not matter then.)
It just increases "masses of alternatives" (which we already have a lot) but it does not really enhance gameplay.
B) But yes, there are also some technical aspects in features, e.g. "Education", "Learning by Doing", "Capturing", ... where it needs to be exactly clear which Unit is (technically) created.
These things more or less happen with a 1:1 rule (e.g. Profession -> Expert) - which can be interpreted Civ specifically though - by using "Unique Units".
C) Every Unit should have a clear unique purpose (and usage) in the game. Basically having something like "an evolution" (from weak to strong) or a "stone - paper - scissor" system.
Availability vs. power as well as costs vs. benefits as well as advantages vs. disadvantages need to make sense to add value to gameplay.
----
Good concept design does not mean that we should simply dump anything we technically can into the mod.
(I have seen that often enough in other mods and hated to play them.)
There are many aspects to be considered - some are a little hard to explain in a few short posts.
Also this needs to match the "vision" / the "big picture" / other planned features for the mod.
With "Unique Units" and "Unique Buildings" I am in fact trying to give players an enhancement of Civ specific strategies that they care about.
And I am also trying to add a new gameplay element which is capturing those to add these "specific enhancements" to your own Civ.
I am not trying to simply give them lots of alternatives that actually do not really matter for gameplay.
(In fact I am trying to clean some of that up by transforming useless Units to useful Unique Units which includes rebalancing them.)
There simply is a big difference between useless / unmeaningful content (that players hardly ever use) and useful / meaningful content (that players really care about).
Technically however we can add whatever Units we want and as many as we want - but I do not feel it will make the mod better to "just have more" Units that do not have a justification / purpose.
To summarize the idea:
- Trying to make the existing Civs more unique (considering useful strategies) but still historically correct
- Adding a few new (Civ specific) Unique Units that enhance gameplay and meaningful choices
- Removing useless Units by transforming them into useful (Civ specific) Unique Units - thus removing unmeaningful choices
- Not adding stuff "just to have more" without enhancing gameplay strategies or meaningful choices.
(What I consider meaningful might and most likely will be considered unmeaningful by somebody else.)
Finding a consense in such things is not always easy ...
Last edited:
Atlas627
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2011
- Messages
- 2,930
@Atlas627
I am not talking about "Technical Stuff" only.
I am mainly talking about "good gameplay design" (as I personally consider it).
A) I do not consider it to be good gameplay to have 2 Units (for the same Civ) that basically do the same and are equally valuable for the same purpose. (The choice does not matter then.)
It just increases "masses of alternatives" (which we already have a lot) but it does not really enhance gameplay.
I agree. This is why the things I suggested are not equally valuable for the same purpose. If I intend to trade with the natives in the wilderness, I want to use the Coureur des Bois. If I intend to trade with them on flatland, or ferry things between my own towns, I want to use a normal Wagon Train. I will choose which to build, and which to use, as appropriate. If it is a strict replacement, my only decision is whether or not to use it. And of course, usually I am going to choose to use it (otherwise it might as well not exist).
I'm not sure how making Unique units not replacements would cause a problem here. Is this why you don't want human units? All of the "human units" that you are talking about are probably more accurately called "civilians", since things like Line Infantry and Conquistadors are 'human' yet cannot be trained, cannot found/join settlements, and cannot be captured. Civilians can convert into each other. I don't see what is wrong with building non-civilian human units.
C) Every Unit should have a clear unique purpose (and usage) in the game. Basically having something like "an evolution" (from weak to strong) or a "stone - paper - scissor" system.
Availability vs. power as well as costs vs. benefits as well as advantages vs. disadvantages need to make sense to add value to gameplay.
----
Good concept design does not mean that we should simply dump anything we technically can into the mod.
(I have seen that often enough in other mods and hated to play them.)
There are many aspects to be considered - some are a little hard to explain in a few short posts.
Also this needs to match the "vision" / the "big picture" / other planned features for the mod.
With "Unique Units" and "Unique Buildings" I am in fact trying to give players an enhancement of Civ specific strategies that they care about.
And I am also trying to add a new gameplay element which is capturing those to add these "specific enhancements" to your own Civ.
I am not trying to simply give them lots of alternatives that actually do not really matter for gameplay.
(In fact I am trying to clean some of that up by transforming useless Units to useful Unique Units which includes rebalancing them.)
There simply is a big difference between useless / unmeaningful content (that players hardly ever use) and useful / meaningful content (that players really care about).
Technically however we can add whatever Units we want and as many as we want - but I do not feel it will make the mod better to "just have more" Units that do not have a justification / purpose.
To summarize the idea:
But yes, that is a matter of personal taste.
- Trying to make the existing Civs more unique (considering useful strategies) but still historically correct
- Adding a few new (Civ specific) Unique Units that enhance gameplay and meaningful choices
- Removing useless Units by transforming them into useful (Civ specific) Unique Units - thus removing unmeaningful choices
- Not adding stuff "just to have more" without enhancing gameplay strategies or meaningful choices.
(What I consider meaningful might and most likely will be considered unmeaningful by somebody else.)
Finding a consense in such things is not always easy ...
No argument here!
We have the same principles, we just disagree about whether each of our suggestions actually meets our mutual principles. Or at least, that is how I am interpreting this debate. Could you explain to me, specifically, why what I suggest does not meet these principles? I feel like most of your arguments are actually arguing against something I did not suggest, because they are vague and principles-oriented. Now, if you want me to point out how the suggestions I made conform to your principles, I can. If you want to set additional goals like "needs to have somewhere to get the graphics from", I can try to come up with those for you. But I don't know what you want for feedback when I think my suggestions conform to your requirements exactly, yet you keep saying they don't without further elaboration as to why they don't (but plenty of elaboration on what you mean by your principles, which I do appreciate).
I do not want to *just add stuff*. I hate those mods too. I already feel like this mod is on the brink of having too much extra *stuff*, with all the additional goods and professions (and experts) to work them. So I am very much against just adding stuff. But I feel like your original proposal, where Uniques are replacements, aka a Unique Ability with graphics, is exactly just adding stuff!
I'm talking about new units (of course, they would have also new graphics). Example: Blade&Sword Units as well as early firearm units for early eras and the military units we are currently using for middle and late game. I did not know that it is almost already possible to unlock units during the game! This WOULD BE REALLY GREAT!!! For example I ever hated it that some of the units, especially ships, are available during the whole game. It would be really great to have era-specific military units and ships.
I'm happy to start a thread for that as soon as I find a little bit more time for explanation.
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
Ok guys, I have thought a bit about the (Civ specific) Unique Buindings.
They will not replace existing Buidings but be a new Building.
Technically:
All of them will use the same "SpecialBuildingType": "SPECIALBUILDING_CIV_UNIQUE".
Thus in every City there can be only 1 "Specialbuilding_Civ_Unique".
(If a UniqueBuilding already exists in City no other can be built anymore.)
Which one you can build will depend on the Nation that founded the City.
Gameplay:
They will be buildings giving additional bonusses or even unlock new teatures (for the City only with the Unique Building only).
They will however not have worker slots. (Thus less space needed in City Screen.)
Again, these are not general bonusses, you will need to build the UniqueBuilding to unlock them for the specific Cities (and not complete Civ).
Requirements to Build:
Not 100% sure yet (and it might differ for the specific UniqueBuildings) but most likely you will be unable to unlock them after already build some other mid-tier buildings (e.g. like City Hall, Carpentery and another one that fits to the specific Unique Building).
They will not replace existing Buidings but be a new Building.
Technically:
All of them will use the same "SpecialBuildingType": "SPECIALBUILDING_CIV_UNIQUE".
Thus in every City there can be only 1 "Specialbuilding_Civ_Unique".
(If a UniqueBuilding already exists in City no other can be built anymore.)
Which one you can build will depend on the Nation that founded the City.
Gameplay:
They will be buildings giving additional bonusses or even unlock new teatures (for the City only with the Unique Building only).
They will however not have worker slots. (Thus less space needed in City Screen.)
Again, these are not general bonusses, you will need to build the UniqueBuilding to unlock them for the specific Cities (and not complete Civ).
Requirements to Build:
Not 100% sure yet (and it might differ for the specific UniqueBuildings) but most likely you will be unable to unlock them after already build some other mid-tier buildings (e.g. like City Hall, Carpentery and another one that fits to the specific Unique Building).
Spoiler :
Last edited:
Nightinggale
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2009
- Messages
- 5,279
One thing to consider for those unique building bonuses is that I added plotgroups to M:C. However unlike the plotgroups in BTS, my implementation is simplified to only follow routes (roads). This means checking if two plots are connected by road is done by checking the plotgroup ID on both plots. No pathfinding, meaning it's essentially instant. There is code to update if enemies block the road or similar disconnects.
We can use this to make the unique buildings only affect colonies and settlements in the same plotgroup as in only locations connected by road. This means for instance the French ability to "teleport" a small amount of yields from a trading post to a colony only works if there is a road between the trading post and the colony in question.
We can use this to make the unique buildings only affect colonies and settlements in the same plotgroup as in only locations connected by road. This means for instance the French ability to "teleport" a small amount of yields from a trading post to a colony only works if there is a road between the trading post and the colony in question.
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
I was considering to check for road / water connections for these both:
- Native Relations Office (Netherlands)
- Trader's Guild (Netherlands)
for Trader's Guild:
I wanted to simply loop all cities of the Nation and check for the Unique Building and build a list with the City IDs.
Then it would just redistribute the goods needed for Domestic Sales using the list.
So I was trying to avoid checking connections / road paths for performance reasons.
But maybe checking for road and water connections is really more realistic.
(It would only be needed for building the list of Cities that are connected.)
for Native Relations Office:
First I wanted to count the Buildings "Native Relations Office" of the Nation.
Then I wanted to loop the Native Villages and for each one I find that has a "Mission" or "Trade Post" I would set up counters (and an int-array for the Yields) as well.
Then I would simply loop all Cities of the nation and do the logic of generating the "Native Mercenaries" (using the counters) and the distrubtion of Yields for the (usint the int-arrays) when "Native Relations Office" are found.
So again, it would not necessarily have needed to check connections / road paths.
But maybe checking for road and water connections is again more realistic.
(Basically every City could thus check for the Native Villages it is connected to.)
-----
I am open to change my current concepts because they are currently just rough ideas.
Remark:
Water connection can simply be checked by "Ocean Access".
That would absolutely be good enough. It does not need to check for a paths on ocean.
Last edited:
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
Just bumping "ACCEPTED" old concepts so they get further up in the queue again.
Cacaso
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 186
Some UU suggestions, for Portuguese colonies:
"ALFERES" - Replaces the unity "Veteran town guard",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- +1 health in the city (not cumulative, not to be an "exploit")
- +5% liberty bells in the city (not cumulative, not to be an "exploit")
ALFERES was a lower rank officer in army. Some of these officers were used for patrolling/policing in areas of the "Caminho Novo" (the route that linked the gold mines in Minas Gerais to the port of Rio de Janeiro) to avoid the presence of robbers or smuggling of gold.
These effects are a reference to Tiradentes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiradentes, on the wiki there is an image of him in the uniform of "ALFERES"). The name TIRADENTES can be translated as "tooth extractor", which was one of the few clinical procedures that dentists at the time had. and TIRADENTS was a dentist.
The increase in liberty bells is due to the fact that TIRADENTES was a leader of the "Inconfidência mineira" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconfidência_Mineira) which was a separatist movement that intended to free Minas Gerais from Portugal.
In the future when "Crime and law" is added the effects may also change to something related to smuggling reduction (maybe upkeep reduction)
"PADRE JESUÍTA" - Replaces the unity "Jesuit Missionary",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
-If at least one unit is working as a preacher, remove the malus in education for the units, native slave (-3 education)/converted native (-1 education).
- +150% conversion rate.
These effects are due to the Jesuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus#Colonial_Brazil) being responsible for the work of catechism/conversion of native populations in colonial Brazil. The Jesuit priests had great success in Brazil, because they were concerned about understanding the native languages (the first Tupi-Portuguese dictionary was made by Jóse de Anchieta who was an important Jesuit priest in Brazil), so the 150% conversion bonus would represent that .
The other bonus is due to the fact that the Jesuits were the founders of the education system in Brazil, they built small schools to educate/literate/catechize the natives and Colleges for the education of the elite.
"CAPITÃO DO MATO" - Replaces the unity "Slave hunter",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Cash prize for capturing slaves
- Reduced chances of slave escape
- Great reduction in chances of slave rebellion
- No unhapinnes for having a lot of slaves in the city (I don't know exactly how to implement this)
"BANDEIRANTES" - Replaces the unity "scout",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Enslave natives in combat, spawning native slaves.
- better mobility in forests/hills/outside (not sure exactly how to implement this without being too exploitative)
"Tamed Slave" - Replaces the unity "African Slave",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Reduced chance of escaping
- +3 production of gold/coffee/sugar (these three products were the main uses of black slaves in the colonization of Brazil, as gold is a very rare resource, this bonus would only reach the production of coffee and sugar)
- Maybe a +1 gold on riverside hill tiles (so it's not Overpower maybe only allow it in cities that have the gold resource, or on tiles adjacent to the gold resource, but I don't know if this can be done or if it's worth it)
EDIT:
"BRAZILEIRO" - Replaces the unity "lumberjack",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- +1/+2 Prime timber production in jungle
- can produces Prime timber+dye (similar to the hunter that produces fur + food)
- maybe, can produce dye/resin from jungle
- can produce Prime timber when chop down costal forest/jungle
- maybe, cash prize when chop down jungle/costal forest
The term "Brazileiro" (written in Portuguese with a z) was the name given to the people who worked with the extraction of Pau-Brasil wood, which was the first economic activity developed by Portugal in its American colony.
This same term "Brazileiro" means Brazilian (written in Portuguese with z) was adopted as the gentile of those born in Brazil. But there was a moment (beginning of the republic in 1919, in order to generate greater nationalist identity) in the Portuguese language when the letter Z was changed to S, and then the gentilic word became "Brasileiro" meaning Brazilian, and the name of the country from Brazil to Brasil.
So I think the term in archaic Portuguese would be more appropriate.
The last two effects would be related to the fact that the logging was done in an exploratory/predatory way, which almost led the tree to extinction. this would be an effect that would have to be applied if the unit was used as a pioneer, so I don't know if it can be done.
The reference link is in Portuguese because it is difficult to find more complete content in a foreign language, so unfortunately it will have to be translated
http://www.biologico.sp.gov.br/uploads/docs/pag/v9_1/dagostini.pdf
"ALFERES" - Replaces the unity "Veteran town guard",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- +1 health in the city (not cumulative, not to be an "exploit")
- +5% liberty bells in the city (not cumulative, not to be an "exploit")
ALFERES was a lower rank officer in army. Some of these officers were used for patrolling/policing in areas of the "Caminho Novo" (the route that linked the gold mines in Minas Gerais to the port of Rio de Janeiro) to avoid the presence of robbers or smuggling of gold.
These effects are a reference to Tiradentes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiradentes, on the wiki there is an image of him in the uniform of "ALFERES"). The name TIRADENTES can be translated as "tooth extractor", which was one of the few clinical procedures that dentists at the time had. and TIRADENTS was a dentist.
The increase in liberty bells is due to the fact that TIRADENTES was a leader of the "Inconfidência mineira" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconfidência_Mineira) which was a separatist movement that intended to free Minas Gerais from Portugal.
In the future when "Crime and law" is added the effects may also change to something related to smuggling reduction (maybe upkeep reduction)
"PADRE JESUÍTA" - Replaces the unity "Jesuit Missionary",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
-If at least one unit is working as a preacher, remove the malus in education for the units, native slave (-3 education)/converted native (-1 education).
- +150% conversion rate.
These effects are due to the Jesuits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus#Colonial_Brazil) being responsible for the work of catechism/conversion of native populations in colonial Brazil. The Jesuit priests had great success in Brazil, because they were concerned about understanding the native languages (the first Tupi-Portuguese dictionary was made by Jóse de Anchieta who was an important Jesuit priest in Brazil), so the 150% conversion bonus would represent that .
The other bonus is due to the fact that the Jesuits were the founders of the education system in Brazil, they built small schools to educate/literate/catechize the natives and Colleges for the education of the elite.
"CAPITÃO DO MATO" - Replaces the unity "Slave hunter",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Cash prize for capturing slaves
- Reduced chances of slave escape
- Great reduction in chances of slave rebellion
- No unhapinnes for having a lot of slaves in the city (I don't know exactly how to implement this)
"BANDEIRANTES" - Replaces the unity "scout",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Enslave natives in combat, spawning native slaves.
- better mobility in forests/hills/outside (not sure exactly how to implement this without being too exploitative)
"Tamed Slave" - Replaces the unity "African Slave",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- Reduced chance of escaping
- +3 production of gold/coffee/sugar (these three products were the main uses of black slaves in the colonization of Brazil, as gold is a very rare resource, this bonus would only reach the production of coffee and sugar)
- Maybe a +1 gold on riverside hill tiles (so it's not Overpower maybe only allow it in cities that have the gold resource, or on tiles adjacent to the gold resource, but I don't know if this can be done or if it's worth it)
EDIT:
"BRAZILEIRO" - Replaces the unity "lumberjack",
effects: this UU would have all the same effects as the common unity plus
- +1/+2 Prime timber production in jungle
- can produces Prime timber+dye (similar to the hunter that produces fur + food)
- maybe, can produce dye/resin from jungle
- can produce Prime timber when chop down costal forest/jungle
- maybe, cash prize when chop down jungle/costal forest
The term "Brazileiro" (written in Portuguese with a z) was the name given to the people who worked with the extraction of Pau-Brasil wood, which was the first economic activity developed by Portugal in its American colony.
This same term "Brazileiro" means Brazilian (written in Portuguese with z) was adopted as the gentile of those born in Brazil. But there was a moment (beginning of the republic in 1919, in order to generate greater nationalist identity) in the Portuguese language when the letter Z was changed to S, and then the gentilic word became "Brasileiro" meaning Brazilian, and the name of the country from Brazil to Brasil.
So I think the term in archaic Portuguese would be more appropriate.
The last two effects would be related to the fact that the logging was done in an exploratory/predatory way, which almost led the tree to extinction. this would be an effect that would have to be applied if the unit was used as a pioneer, so I don't know if it can be done.
The reference link is in Portuguese because it is difficult to find more complete content in a foreign language, so unfortunately it will have to be translated
http://www.biologico.sp.gov.br/uploads/docs/pag/v9_1/dagostini.pdf
Last edited:
Cacaso
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 186
Some UB suggestions, for Portuguese colonies:
"CASA DE FUNDIÇÃO" -
effects: this UB would have the effects (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_de_fundição)
- +1 gold per turn
- 1 time, Increase in relation to the king when the 1st is built. (the King of Portugal sent handwritten letters to the "provedores" (officials responsible for the foundry houses) for collecting so much wealth for the kingdom)
- Reduced smuggling (possible effects could be added with future "law and order" branch)
- maybe, build automatic connection of roads between the capital and the first city that built this UB, to represent the creation of the "CAMINHO NOVO" (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caminho_Novo) which was the main road built in the colonial era in Portuguese America.
"PELOURINHO" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Reduced unhapinnes by slaves
- Reduced chance of revolt
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
The "pelourinhos" were stone or wooden columns where escaped slaves and criminals were flogged as punishment for their faults. It was a relevant structure during the period of slavery in Brazil.
(https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelourinho)
"SENZALA / CASA-GRANDE / CASA-GRANDE and SENZALA" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Reduced unhapinnes by slaves
- Reduced chance of revolt
- African slaves produce more on plantations
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
The third suggested name is homonym to the book "Casa-grande & Senzala" by Gilberto Freyre, which is an important piece of Brazilian literature that portrays the importance of these constructions and slavery in the sociocultural formation of Brazil.
I myself believe these would be more suitable as a "feature"/"unique feature" in place of the second stage sugar plantation.
(https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senzala) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa-grande) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa-Grande_&_Senzala)
"ENGENHO/ ENGENHO DE AÇUCAR" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Increased sugar production
- +1 rum per turn (to represent cachaça distillate)
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenho)
"CASA DE FUNDIÇÃO" -
effects: this UB would have the effects (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_de_fundição)
- +1 gold per turn
- 1 time, Increase in relation to the king when the 1st is built. (the King of Portugal sent handwritten letters to the "provedores" (officials responsible for the foundry houses) for collecting so much wealth for the kingdom)
- Reduced smuggling (possible effects could be added with future "law and order" branch)
- maybe, build automatic connection of roads between the capital and the first city that built this UB, to represent the creation of the "CAMINHO NOVO" (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caminho_Novo) which was the main road built in the colonial era in Portuguese America.
"PELOURINHO" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Reduced unhapinnes by slaves
- Reduced chance of revolt
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
The "pelourinhos" were stone or wooden columns where escaped slaves and criminals were flogged as punishment for their faults. It was a relevant structure during the period of slavery in Brazil.
(https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelourinho)
"SENZALA / CASA-GRANDE / CASA-GRANDE and SENZALA" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Reduced unhapinnes by slaves
- Reduced chance of revolt
- African slaves produce more on plantations
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
The third suggested name is homonym to the book "Casa-grande & Senzala" by Gilberto Freyre, which is an important piece of Brazilian literature that portrays the importance of these constructions and slavery in the sociocultural formation of Brazil.
I myself believe these would be more suitable as a "feature"/"unique feature" in place of the second stage sugar plantation.
(https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senzala) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa-grande) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa-Grande_&_Senzala)
"ENGENHO/ ENGENHO DE AÇUCAR" -
effects: this UB would have the effects
- Increased sugar production
- +1 rum per turn (to represent cachaça distillate)
I don't know exactly how to implement this UB, but I leave it here to be registered in case it is interesting as a UB option.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenho)
Last edited:
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
@Cacaso
You are linking Portuguese Wikiepdia articles.
We need links to pages in English so everyobdy understands what you are posting about.
I saw that it is possible to switch language at the right, but please always link to English pages.
Otherwise most people just see that they do not understand the language and directly quit.
You are linking Portuguese Wikiepdia articles.
We need links to pages in English so everyobdy understands what you are posting about.
I saw that it is possible to switch language at the right, but please always link to English pages.
Otherwise most people just see that they do not understand the language and directly quit.
Cacaso
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 186
ok ray,
I always try to search for pages/links in English to add in the comments, but in some of them there was only the link in Portuguese. That's why I put these links, so that it would be illustrated, and if there was interest, have the opportunity to do the translation with some translation tool (the automatic one from google or another).
The last 3 links of my post I found the English version and replaced it.
Next time I will try to put links exclusively in English to facilitate communication on the forum.
I always try to search for pages/links in English to add in the comments, but in some of them there was only the link in Portuguese. That's why I put these links, so that it would be illustrated, and if there was interest, have the opportunity to do the translation with some translation tool (the automatic one from google or another).
The last 3 links of my post I found the English version and replaced it.
Next time I will try to put links exclusively in English to facilitate communication on the forum.
Kendon
Prince
When I trace "pelourinho" in the English Wikipedia I get https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_Center_of_Salvador, and it does have a section on pillories. The Portuguese entry appears to be more detailed on pelourinhos specifically but an exact English translation is not yet available. I like DeepL as a translation tool.
The successful Haitian slave revolt is mentioned in "engenho". The European rulers countered it economically, blocking the victorious slaves from continuing to profit from trade. Before the revolt Haiti provided half the world's sugar; after it, none. Brazil was the big beneficiary.
Cacaso
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 186
As the "pelourinho" was a stone column used to physically punish slaves, its use was discontinued when slavery was abolished in Brazil in 1888.
However, there is a public place ("Largo do Pelourinho", officially "Praça José de Alencar") with the same name in the historic center of the city of Salvador which, due to its greater historical/cultural relevance, usually redirects research (especially in foreign languages, even in portuguese it is difficult to find information about the "Pelourinho" columns. )
A curiosity, the clip by michael jackson "they don't care about us" was recorded, in parts, at "Largo do Pelourinho" in Salvador - BA.
However, there is a public place ("Largo do Pelourinho", officially "Praça José de Alencar") with the same name in the historic center of the city of Salvador which, due to its greater historical/cultural relevance, usually redirects research (especially in foreign languages, even in portuguese it is difficult to find information about the "Pelourinho" columns. )
A curiosity, the clip by michael jackson "they don't care about us" was recorded, in parts, at "Largo do Pelourinho" in Salvador - BA.
Evil Beejeebers
Warlord
I think the natives need unique units and buildings first. They are very samey.
Milamber1931
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2008
- Messages
- 31
One thing I would like to point out here is the Puritan contribution to the public education system that emerged in English colonies with large portions of them. One of the main tenets of Puritanism was no central hierarchy amd the only source of authority they recognized was the Word of God, the Bible. That lead to the necessity of eqch individual having a strong command of reading and literacy so they could intelligently interpret the Bible on their on and not fall prey to someone looking to lead them astray as had been the case exclusively for most of Christian history until this point. I think a production bonus based in the concept of Puritan Work Ethic is fine and should be included but there should also be a significant bonus for Education in any of their colonies as well because they are in large part why we have advanced Literacy as far as we have today.
raystuttgart
Civ4Col Modder
The Unique Units part for this has been implemented by @liet with graphics from @Schmiddie.
I think the Unique Buildings part can be skipped. Was never really sure if Unique Buildings was necesssary anyways.
Thus I consider this to be "Implemented".
(Status in thread title updated accordingly.)
I think the Unique Buildings part can be skipped. Was never really sure if Unique Buildings was necesssary anyways.
Thus I consider this to be "Implemented".
(Status in thread title updated accordingly.)
Cacaso
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2020
- Messages
- 186
Good news: adding the unique units for each nation has been completed!
The full line-up:
- Danish Colonies: Dansk Fisker, replacing the Expert Fisherman
- Dutch Colonies: Timmerman, replacing the Master Carpenter
- English Colonies: Colonial Distiller, replacing the Master Distiller
- French Colonies: French Furrier, replacing the Master Fur Trader
- Portuguese Colonies: Escavador, replacing the Expert Prospector
- Russian Colonies: Siberian Lumberjack, replacing the Expert Lumberjack
- Spanish Colonies: Explorador, replacing the Seasoned Scout
- Swedish Colonies: Järnsmed, replacing the Master Blacksmith
As said, also a huge thanks to Schmiddie for creating all the graphics!
View attachment 663120
I found the addition of UU to each CIV very cool, they will certainly help to make the play more unique with each one.
Looking at the description of the powers of the Unique Units, I realized that some are interesting like the "Spanish explorer" that gives a bonus in gold received greater than the seasoned scout and is the strongest UU, in addition to having other UUs like the Swedish Jarnsmed and Dutch timmersman which increase tools/blades and production respectively and these are the best units.
Then the French Furrier and English Distiller give greater production of Coats/PremiumCoats and Rum/Brandy, respectively, and also have an interesting economic impact.
Then comes the Danish Fisker and Russian Siberian lumberjack, which increase the production of Food caught on the coast, and wood, which are very used resources in all cities and therefore very useful.
However, the UU of Portugal, which is Escavadores, seemed weaker than the others.
Because it can only work to collect Gold/Silver/Gems on tiles that have these resources on the map and that's rare. I usually have 3 or 4 tiles at most with these features. Thus, CIV Portugal can use its UU in very few tiles, while those of other CIVs such as Spain, Denmark, Russia, Holland, can be used much more often, since the number of units of scout, fisher, lumberjack and carpenter is much higher than the number of times the "Expert propector" unit is used.
So I think that the UU of Portugal is weaker than the others. Would it be possible to add some more effect to UU ESCAVADORES so that it would be a little stronger and thus more balanced with the others?
Perhaps some extra bonus in exploring Ore or Coal, as the word Escavadores means diggers in Portuguese, so I think it would be an alternative. Or else try to give some other bonus, I found this UU much weaker in relation to the others.
ArchdukeLiet
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2022
- Messages
- 91
Thanks for sharing your vision, Cacaso.
We considered having a secondary bonus for the escavador (ore). However as secondary bonuses are defined in the terrain type instead of the unit/profession, it was not possible to implement it in that way.
As always we've had considerable discussions on the balance of the units. In fact many regarded the escavador to be overpowered.
Probably the fact that people argue both ways confirms that the current balance is quite good.
We considered having a secondary bonus for the escavador (ore). However as secondary bonuses are defined in the terrain type instead of the unit/profession, it was not possible to implement it in that way.
As always we've had considerable discussions on the balance of the units. In fact many regarded the escavador to be overpowered.
Probably the fact that people argue both ways confirms that the current balance is quite good.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Sticky
