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National College with cities

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Haersh, Dec 29, 2013.

  1. Haersh

    Haersh Chieftain

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    Do you guys go 3 cities then NC or finish NC then settle your other 2/3 cities? In most games (king) I get shaka / japan some warmongering expansionist as my neighbour so I usually go 3 cities then NC, usually saving up money to buy a library in my 3rd city. I usually get my NC by turn 80/90.

    So a couple of questions. Is getting the NC at this time bad? Should I really be going for 3 cities --> NC?
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Depends on the land and your early goals.

    I usually go OCC to NC and I will either buy a settler or I will make the settler if I have 400 gold for the library and settle the 2nd city right before/after NC.

    I wont have 2 more cities out waiting for a library unless I am doing a straight liberty opener or perhaps doing Oracle before NC which I sometimes do. If its a choice, finishing Tradition earlier can be greater then the NC I think.
     
  3. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    lately I've been getting NC before expansion, but habitually I enjoy having that 2nd city out early so I can multi-task while going for NC. I think the styles are pretty comparable. Especially if you commonly use gold to help early expansion.

    Finishing NC -> purchase settler to expand is similar to build settler/expand -> purchase library.

    I probably wouldn't expand much passed 2 cities though, if at all.
     
  4. rawrtrav

    rawrtrav Chieftain

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    I prefer getting the NC set up before settling any other cities, so I normally get it up by around turn 60 - 65, and then I can focus on getting a couple of settlers going, knowing I'm not going to stagnate with my science due to lack of growth while building those settlers.

    I'd say just do what you feel most comfortable doing.
     
  5. spoko22

    spoko22 Chieftain

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    The values here are relevant for standard pace game, right?
    Most often I play on emperor (6), standard/large map, epic pace and from my experience I can tell: unless NC is terribly delayed, the only question you are going to be asking yourself is "when will I win?", not "will I win?".
    Most often I build it directly before settling the second city, BUT - this really sucks, when I want to move towards Immortal (7). The gap between 6 and 7 is far larger than between i.e. 4 and 5. I always have hard time. My question is - what should be the right timing for NC on epic speed, when playing on Immortal/Deity? Today I was watching a stream - dude playing Pocatello, deity, standard, continents (only one neighbour - Gandhi) - he settled 5 or 6 cities before starting building NC (turn about 150, don't remember accurately). Isn't it too late? AI on 7/8 gets amazing bonuses, is that even possible to be 1st on score list without warnongering?
     
  6. Johan^^

    Johan^^ Chieftain

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    This is quite good and should set you up nicely on king for an easy science Victory or whichever you prefer.

    Try and perfect your strategy and eventually you will be able to get NC up earlier with 3 or 4 cities. I would suggest that you move straigt to emp or maybe immortal and see if you can repeat it :)
     
  7. Franzen

    Franzen Chieftain

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    I think a lot of it depends on the map. Normally I've been going with 1-2 expansion cities with another settler just kind of waiting to found a city while kicking out the libraries/NC but then I always feel behind getting that process done. If I can afford to do more, great, or if I need to do less, OK, too. I find I'm not nearly as successful whenever I delay for too long and end up getting the NC in like the 90s... definitely helps to get it done and out of the way as early as you can.

    I will say I'm in the middle of a game as Babylon (Pangea map, standard speed/size, immortal difficulty) where the starting location was/is excellent and decided to just prioritize the NC first and then expand. Surrounding area was fairly secluded with the coast line to the north and west plus city states, jungle to the south and mountain range to the east. With my closest neighbors being Greece to the south (lot a jungle to get through before being able to attack me) and the Incans east of the mountain range (only 2 openings, great choke points) I had some time before I needed to kick out settlers. Got especially fortunate that both neighboring civs expanded east into their other neighbors. Alex also got preoccupied with going to war against Japan early so that slowed him down. Got NC up in the early 50s before expanding and by turn 70 had 3 expansion cities and the Writer's Guild done with time to move on to the Oracle (which I also got). Seems pretty viable to forego expanding if you've got the time (and a free GS doesn't hurt to tech up to Philosophy quickly).
     
  8. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    this isnt a make-or-break kind of decision in your game. it will play a smaller part based on whether you picked a VC yet. i dont have a one-way-or-the-other kind of approach to NC. i generally stick to getting NC before the 4th city is up and before t80 but circumstances tend to decide if i got it at 1, 2 or 3 cities.
     
  9. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

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    I always seem to lose the good spots if I delay expansion, on immortal. If going tradition, I like to get all 4 cities up before NC, ideally. This slows down NC but is better in the long run IMO. I also am not a big fan of purchasing a library unless absolutely necessary. This can usually be avoided with some planning, allowing you to spend the gold on a worker instead, which is much more beneficial.
     
  10. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    me either but i usually buy 2 archers with 400g instead. the archers also help me rescue a worker/settler and then keep them. in general i prefer getting a few CS quests if i can.
     
  11. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    To keep from losing the good spots I will occupy them and ask that they not be settled. I will also go to war to keep them.
     
  12. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

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    do you just DOW as soon as you see a settler approaching and go straight for the kill? I feel like when I try stuff like this (without dowing), they just settle 1-2 hexes away, which still messes up my expansion plans.

    I also like buying archers sometimes, if I can get an early worker steal. But I'm really bad at stealing workers, so usually I do end up buying the worker most of the time.
     
  13. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Their is no correct way to play this game and as far I know doing the same startegy over and over again is will not be optimal.

    Somtimes NC before cities will be good but sometimes it can be your way to a loss.
    Getting alot of science early may look great but if you only got your capital in a good lokation you may not be able to take advanatge of your tech and may be forced to war which may cripple your relationship which ´may lead to lower tech in later game compared to cities first.
     
  14. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Depends upon hammer output and gold.

    Most common for me is 2 city NC then build a 3rd city right afterwords and later a 4th
    Next most common is 1 city NC then 2 settlers back to back and later a 4th city; slow hammer start
    Least common is a 3 city NC start. That's when the second city has lots of hammers.

    My goal is turn 70; but in BNW with the early game gold shortage it often slips into mid 80s.
     
  15. Darth Smeg

    Darth Smeg Chieftain

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    How do you do that? Just place lot's of units there to prevent settlers access?
    Are you talking about MP games, or is there some way of telling the AI that "this place is mine!"?
     
  16. Haersh

    Haersh Chieftain

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    I just tried it on emperor with korea. I went 2 cities --> national college --> 3rd city (4th had to be avoided due to start). I got my NC around turn 70ish, with positive gold output along with 5+ archers. Is a turn 70 NC late or is it acceptable?
     
  17. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Pretty much yes. If I see them coming I will ask them to leave, but then if they don't, I declare war and kill it.

    I don't usually steal workers from CS, sometimes I will from AI.

    You just need to put an archer/warrior combo in the spot you want to settle and be vigilant.
     
  18. Johan^^

    Johan^^ Chieftain

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    This is fine. Now upgrade those Archers to CB and go take a good AI city close to you, or take out the leader of the game if he is not to far away. This should easily be done with 6 CBs and 1 horse/spear/etc. First you kill of units send your direction, then you move in to 3 titles from city and repeat. Then you move in and take the city. Usually you can take Down cities below 25 strength with 6 CBs.

    Alternatively you can just eco up and grow those cities. Hope you used those 5 Archers to complete lots of city state quests, so you have extra food, culture etc.

    Now try and play some games out, so you get the end game right. Depending on your preferred Victory condition your tech route can differ slightly, but not a Whole lot. Generally you want to go straight for education. Try to time it so you enter Renaissance just before your 7th social policy, so you can pick Rationalisme asap and get to secularisme fast.

    Then get to public school and research labs asap. Remember to run lots of scientist specialists and get those Science Buildings up asap.

    Once you are around 120 beakers at turn ~120, i´d say you can move up to deity :)
     
  19. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS Chieftain

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    I think the biggest factor for me is the lack or presence of amazing city locations that are nearby.

    If there is/are good or great city locations, I always get them first (and usually ASAP). My reasoning is that other players WILL get them. Furthermore, since they are good, you should be able to build a library fairly quickly once you improve a few tiles.

    If there are average or bad locations for a second city. I almost always go for the NC. A notable exception would be a faith-based natural wonder (and I want to get a religion). This is important because subpar city locations can be made better (sometimes much better) with an appropriate pantheon and religion.
     
  20. dragonxxx

    dragonxxx Chieftain

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    I prefer to have 4 cities before doing the NC or at least 3 and a settler on the 4th spot. with the Ai expanding so early, not getting the good spots asap is asking for trouble ... So getting NC in the 80s or early 90s works fine for me. After all early game a caravan gives same BPT as NC give or take ...
     

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