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National Wonder focus

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Becomedeath, Jul 4, 2011.

  1. Becomedeath

    Becomedeath The Destroyer

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    Having generally employed a heavy military game, I tend to rapidly expand early on through conquest leaving my medival game to be a bit of a clean up before industrial war begins.

    However, with Civ 5's National Wonders being linked to standard improvements required in all cities, it's rather hard to work them into my game as by the time I get to looking into them the cost of implimenting them vastly outweighs their benefits.

    Having read up all I can on them, I'm still at a loss as the implimentation of national wonders early on really inhibits my expansion and later on costs more than it's worth.

    Is there a preffered National Wonder strategy that others have employed? Are they really worth the effort? How the heck can I work them into a military game without having to spend a shed load of gold getting a wonder that will have paid for itself by the time 2050 comes up? :confused:
     
  2. Montov

    Montov King

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    National College is (still) strong for all uses. After NC in your capital, you can go back to your habit of settling and conquering. Ironworks is super too but is not so beneficial in an early domination attempt. You can still go for Ironworks after your first military campaign, so you can build Riflemen faster for a second (third?) campaign.
     
  3. Rex_Mundi

    Rex_Mundi Prince

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    National Wonders is one of the ways for tall empires to stay competitive with wide empires.

    When playing for a wide empre through heavy millitary use, you may benefit from heroic epic, you could consider staying with a single city untill heroic epic is done.

    Loads of strategies are build around heroic rushes.
     
  4. Mahasona

    Mahasona Prince

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    Try puppeting instead of annexing. If for example, you have 6 cites, 2 you control and 4 puppets, you only need libraries in the 2 you control in order to build the National Library. Control all 6 cities and you need 6 libraries.

    Oh - and the cost of the wonder also goes up with the number of controlled/annexed cities you have.
     
  5. Poomermon

    Poomermon Warlord

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    I'm pretty sure the cost goes up even with puppetted cities. I once started building ironworks late game with songhai while constantly conquering new puppets and the final cost ended up to something like 1000 hammers.
     
  6. vexing

    vexing knows

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    that's by design. they cost 125 + 30 * number of city :c5production: to build. with one city this is the same as a late medieval era building.

    personally i still think NC first is a strong play - beeline writing, build GL, take philosophy, build NC.
     
  7. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    Puppets do increase national wonder cost.

    National College is absurdly powerful. It is very meaningful to delay you expansion through conquest (read: butchering the mindless AI for an easy win) to build the College first.

    The other national wonders... not so much. Don't get me wrong, they're all very powerful - but the requirements get in the way. National College is different because it's useful AND early. If you're playing against the AI (where little real opposition to conquering cities is to be expected), it'll likely be the only national wonder you build. But the National College is *always* worth building.

    The national wonder that annoys me the most, I guess, is the Heroic Epic. 15% combat strength bonus? That is, well, epic. Certainly a powerful bonus. Or rather, it would be, if you'd have the time to make use of it! The problem is you'll have to delay building an army to instead building the Epic so badly it's just not a sensible option. Just the Barracks alone (which you must pay upkeep for as well) costs nearly as much production as a couple of archers or warriors - units which, if you built them instead, would be able to defend the empire, clear barbarian camps and rack up more experience in no time than the silly Barracks could ever offer them. Essentially, if you go for the Epic early, chances are you'll end up with a smaller, *less* promoted army than otherwise.

    Situation for the national wonders look better on multiplayer where you can't as readily expect to grab land through conquest as you see fit and so will by default run a 'taller' empire than vs AI. Still, National College seems far above the rest.
     
  8. joyous_gard

    joyous_gard Prince

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    I pretty much always get National College, Heroic Epic at King level and below (levels I play). The Heroic Epic is a major delay in army and I have been DOW for being weak but I just ride it out until the Heroic Epic is finished. I think of Heroic Epic as "taking it to 11." And that is what it's all about.

    I also just about always get all national wonders, but those first two are requisite for me before the wars domination begins. Even with the patch, I rarely annex and usually have 1-3 cities that need the building for the NW to be built.

    Not sure if Heroic Epic is justified, but NC definitely is. It really bumps tech early and that is important.
     
  9. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    NC, Oxford and Ironworks should be automatic in every game. The only question is when to build them.

    I find that the new NC isn't all that great, and that you're better off grabbing some dirt early on. This more or less guarantees an attack, so get Archery early and plan accordingly. Then build the Libraries and the NC. You'll end up ahead on :c5science: in the long run, and you need the Libraries for the critical Universities anyway.

    Ironworks goes up as soon as you can get a Workshop into the weakest :c5production: city.

    Oxford is usually best pre-built (with one turn left) and saved for when you need to close out a beeline or clear a tech to shift the median and increase the returns on a Research Agreement.

    Hermitage is still a must for :c5culture: games and should be skipped otherwise.

    Circus Maximus should only be built if you are seriously struggling with :c5happy:.

    The Heroic Epic is for warmongers.
     
  10. Becomedeath

    Becomedeath The Destroyer

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    Loads of good points.

    Puppeting seems to be the best way, the cost does indeed go up but I'm playing at the moment with 6 cities under my direct control and about 10 puppets. The wonders cost considerably more than they should, but in reality it's not considerably worse that building a world wonder. I squeezed out Heroic Epic and Circus Maximus before and after my first conflict respectively, so an improvement on previous games.

    Although I confess I skipped the NC which pretty much everyone has recommended! Oh well, next game...

    It appears my "why should I build settlers when you're doing it for me" strategy isn't going to wash in Civ 5! :lol:
     
  11. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    Can't say I agree with much of what Martin says.

    First, the NC may have been slightly toned down, at least in what early benefits it offers, but it certainly is still 'all that great'. In fact, in some ways it is even better than previously, because its competitor, the University, has been nerfed. NC provides a 50% science boost while University is just 33% until Rationalism policies. Hell, even the mighty Research Lab is just 50% boost now, down from 100%. Basically, NC is the super national wonder that you'll want every single game practically regardless of situation or what victory type you are pursuing.

    Ironworks I would never build in a hammer-poor city for several reasons. First, it's a national wonder which means you can't settle more cities while it's building. Hence, you want to get it built quickly. Secondly, along the same lines, you want that sweet Ironworks done fast so it can start contributing those mighty +8 hammers ASAP. Furthermore, you want it built in a city that's already well developed and will be one of the first to receive Windmill and/or Factory so that those 8 hammers get boosted further. The ideal Ironworks location IMO would be either your super military city with heroic epic, barracks, forge and armory or your wonder-spamming capital with marble access. You don't want to leave such a powerful wonder swimming in some second-rate city that lacks modifiers.

    Circus Maximus is a great national wonder, and even more since patch. +5 happy is nothing to sneeze at - that's better than having an extra luxury resource. It is nearly as good as the Notre Dame considering it costs (typically) only half as much.

    Heroic Epic isn't just for warmongers - it's for everybody, or rather, it is for nobody for the reasons I mentioned above. Even if you're playing peaceful Gandhi and pursuing cultural victory you'll be happy to have +15% combat strength on your army, even if it's never going to do anything other than defend your empire. If nothing else, the Epic would justfiy skipping either the Armory or Military Academy and still keep an army of the same value, but saving on the massive maintenance and productions costs of mentioned buildings. In fact, peaceful tall empire games are the only ones where the Epic is truly viable, at least in single player.

    National Epic hasn't even been mentioned. It is another annoying wonder in that it quickly gets ridiculously expensive while offering little more benefit than the Garden which is both inexpensive and cheap to maintain. Still, it's another 'should build' in tall empire games, particularly since those will almost certainly end in adopting Freedom which provides enormous benefits to Great People so you'll want as many of them as possible.
     
  12. Agent Cooper

    Agent Cooper Lynch's Creation

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    The NC is imo the most significant wonder in the game. It essentially doubles your research if built early. While Babylons free GS can bulb Philosophy immediately so you can start building the NC at once, I just can't bring myself to spend it on such a relatively cheap tech. I settle him as an academy instead.

    Another thing about National Wonders for those playing with Thals Balance Mod - they include specialists slots. NC -> scientist specialists, IW/HE -> engineer specialists.
     
  13. Misterboy

    Misterboy Modern Major General

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    After reading your first two paragraphs, I am forced to conclude that reading comprehension is not your forte. :rolleyes:

    Edit for clarification: He's saying the NC is a "must build" for every game, just like you. Just that he thinks it's better for a quick expansion first, rather than the old strategy of bee-lining it before city #2. And he's saying that the Ironworks is a must build, as soon as your low hammer city gets it's workshop finished. Not that it should be built in a low hammer city :goodjob:
     
  14. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    He's writing that the NC isn't 'all that great' anymore. I believe that's downright false, or perhaps it was just poorly worded. That was what I commented on in that regard. Like him, I also would rarely beeline for it without securing some territory first.

    You are correct I misread what he says about the Ironworks, though. But instead of reading selectively and trying to slam me for that, perhaps you could share your opinion on the other wonders where our opinions do indeed seem to differ?
     

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