National wonders balance discussion

[Funak]

Figured I'd start a topic on this considering I don't see one up atm.
So anyways national wonders of various power and usefulness exists, other than unlocking them from needing a specific building built in every city not much have been done about them. I figured I'd write a list and let people give some answers and start a discussion:

1.) Do you feel the requirementchange on the NWs was a good idea?

2.) Do you feel like there are enough existing national wonders or should there be more added? (should some be removed?)

3. Are national wonders fun at all?

4. Do you think the current effects of the NWs are fun?

5. Are the existing NWs balanced?

6. If you feel like there should be more NWs in the game, what effects should they possess?

 

[Stalker0]

I general I like nws. There are balance issues to hammer out but we can go through them here.

I like the new population driven system, much more than I thought I would. I will say the pop thresholds for later nws are too low IMO, I never have issue meeting them by the time I get the tech.

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah, they need to be increased quite a bit (later NW pop reqs.).

G

 

[Funak]

Well since no one seems to have an opinion on the matter I'll share mine.

1.) The old National Wonder system heavily favored compact play and punished wide play. Especially wide for the sake of soaking up land while not bothering to build up your infrastructure. The new system fixes that, the new system is generally compact vs wide neutral might actually favor wide a tiny bit but it doesn't really matter since you're usually well above the required national population when you get access to the wonder.

However 2 things however gets pretty dumped by the new system however and that is OCC (large part) and Venice (somewhat less). This would be easily fixable by making the capital count as double pop-value as long as you only have one city (If that is even possibly, just making a suggestion here)

2.) I feel like there is room for a few more NWs a food/growth-based one comes to mind also splitting east india company into one tradebased one and one goldbased (National bank?).

3.) I like the idea of national wonders in general

4.) Some of them are more fun than others, the percentual-based ones comes to mind.

5.)I would say generally no, it would be pretty easy to rank them in order from strongest to weakest.

National visitor center > Hermitage > National College > National Epic > Ironworks > Oxford (Could be placed higher since it is often used to bulb radio to get more early adopter tenents but after it is built it is just 2 writerslots) > Heroic Epic > National intelligence agency > Circus maximus (I'm counting bnw now because I don't remember what it looks like it the latest verson, it was completely op earlier on however) > East india company

While National visitor center clearly is the strongest NW in the game it is so late it the techtree that it hardly creates a balance issue.
Hermitage and National college however are creating issues, the national college is a classical era NW with the same effect of a modern era building (research lab). The Hermitage provides a 50% bonus to culture in a city, an effect a lot stronger than the strongest(and only) percentual based culture based building. That along with how the culture system works (you usually have most of your culture focused in one city) makes the Hermitage pretty damn insane, but that isn't all it does, it also got 3 slots for great works of art along with one of the easist themingbonuses.

The National Epic is pretty balanced/fun from my point of view, the effect is solid and consistant. Its effect is the same as the garden that is available one tech later in the tree, but I wouldn't say that matter much. Could maybe be strengthened by a flat bonus aswell.

The Ironworks I really don't like, it is powerful no doubt about that but I find entirely flat bonuses boring. I would like to see some of the flat bonus get replaced with a percentual bonus.

Oxford is another boring NW imo, the passive effects on it are so weak that saving it to bulb some powerful/expensive tech later on doesn't feel like a real sacrifice.

I don't have much experience with Heroic epic personally, in vanilla I rarely built enough baracks to actually get it. The effect on it seems solid however, but pretty boring, you could add something like a flat amount of GG-points when it is built to help people land their first general (maybe even let it give a full GG?)

National Intelligence agency in bnw suffered from having way too many and way too bad prereq buildings, however with those gone the wonder itself is pretty solid. It is hardly fun or powerful but it gets the job done. Also I have no idea what could be added to it.

Circus maximus in bnw was something you always built, mostly because you were forced to get the prereqbuildings anyways. The wonder itself is pretty boring but the CBP patch fixed that somewhat, but from what I remember it got nerfed again and is pretty weak again now.

East india company is imo the worst NW in the game, by a long margin. It gives you a flat 4 gold at the cost of never getting any traderoutes to your city ever again. If the wonder actually worked it would be fine but since I'm pretty sure the AI determine which traderoutes to send based on golddelta, not actually goldincome, meaning the EIC actually makes the AI less likely to send you traderoutes because you make more money off them. (this could ofcourse all be in my head but I can't remember the AI ever starting a trade with my city after I built EIC in it, rather sending trades to nearby undeveloped cities because the delta is better there).
Anyways even if this is all in my head EIC should probably be split into two, one(national bank) boosting flat gold and a goldpercentual increase and the East India Company providing tradebonuses (both ways) and probably a bonus traderoute or something like that.

6.) Kinda already gone over this but I'll guess I'll do it again
A goldbased one (national bank) giving flat gold and a percentual increase to gold income in the city.

A food or growth based wonder giving either a foodpercentage or a growthpercentage along with a flat foodbonus.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I quite like National Wonders at the moment. The population requirement is a fun concept, it gives you a number to "chase", it doesn't feel tedious and feels like a reward.

The numbers need to be tweaked a bit (later game ones are too easy to get, I think very tall empires with less than 4 cities have a bit of a hard time, too).

In terms of National Wonders themselves: I think they all have valid uses and the less commonly built one (National Intelligence, National Visitor Centre) are a lot more viable now, I like that.

I don't really see a big need for changes here apart from National College, that one might be a bit too good since everybody beelines it, that one could be at +3 and +33% (down from +50% ) and you'd still get plenty out of it.

I agree with the problems East India Company has, it should really be more active in buffing the trade routes you have yourself, too - act more like a super-caravansary/harbour (and entice the AI to trade with it).

Disagree with the need for a food or a gold national wonder:

• Tall already has the tools to build huge capitals, wide doesn't need them, so no need for more food.
• Gold should come from trade routes - if you want gold, trade more. More sources of gold weaken external trade, the BNW trade system works nicely and forces you to go out and interact with others, I'd rather keep that.

 

[mitsho]

So I've put my answers directly into the quote:

1.) Do you feel the requirementchange on the NWs was a good idea?

Yes and No. The old system was annoying, but it was quite clear and was linked intuitively to their thematic base.

This is my 'small little' problem with the new system. Just building up your population and building that one building to get the NW seems quite easy. Adapting the pop requirement just delays them, I however did like the old trigger that 'rewarded' you for building libraries with a super-library.

Including a complicated trigger (i.e. 50% of your cities have a library, reach x science per turn) certainly doesn't legitimise the time spent on it. The pop requirement + tech + local building is enough. Useless line-of-thought-over

2.) Do you feel like there are enough existing national wonders or should there be more added? (should some be removed?) I can see splitting the national treasury away from the EIC for flavour, but there was a gameplay reason they were combined in BNW. So maybe that'd create too much gold, but let's try it
A food one is probably not needed, however I can see one for maritime empires, a "super-seaport" helping with ships and sea ressources. Just don't combine it with the production one. No seriously, somethign to boost coasts and ships.

3. Are national wonders fun at all? Specialisation is fun! But unfortunately the new happiness system discourages specialisation. Nevertheless, they are fun to keep

4. Do you think the current effects of the NWs are fun? Not everything needs to be super creative. NW feel the correct place for some straight up boosts

5. Are the existing NWs balanced? I think you've pointed out the obvious imbalances above

6. If you feel like there should be more NWs in the game, what effects should they possess? See above

 

[Gazebo]

Just FYI, Venice doesn't get punished, as puppet cities count for it towards its national pop.

G

 

[Funak]

Keep in mind that you don't have to stick to how firaxis designed them, you could have NWs giving yields/pop or yields on luxuries/non-luxuries.

NWs is a great place to add power back to compact empires since most people seem to agree that wide is superior.

I'd also like to give an answer to this:

[*]Tall already has the tools to build huge capitals, wide doesn't need them, so no need for more food.

How about a growth-bonus then? There currently isn't any growthbonus in any of the policy-trees.

[*]Gold should come from trade routes - if you want gold, trade more. More sources of gold weaken external trade, the BNW trade system works nicely and forces you to go out and interact with others, I'd rather keep that.

External traderoutes are actually based around your city income, so adding more gold in the city would strengthen external traderoutes aswell.
CEP added a percentual goldbonus straight to the EIC but I personally think a split NW probably around the banking tech would be a better fit.

Just FYI, Venice doesn't get punished, as puppet cities count for it towards its national pop.

G

That's why I said "Somewhat less" you are pretty much forced to beeline optics before you can build a NW not to mention I personally like to save my MoV until the citystate have decent infrastructure/army so there is more value in them.
It doesn't kill Venice, but it hurts them. If you can't do the thing with capitals counting double when you only have one city I'd suggest atleast adding a NW poprequirement reduction to the Venice UA.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I just don't see a big need for more national wonders, most specialisation niches are filled (provided we fix EIC). Growth is just a weird "specialisation".

I wouldn't mind it per se, it just doesn't feel needed, it's more like adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff.

If we *do* add something, I'd like to see a defence NW, though, that gives the city another tile of city bombard range, I can see a few interesting uses for that...

 

[Funak]

it's more like adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff.

But stuff is fun and everyone loves stuff, right?

Edit: Can't believe I forgot the Grand temple. Assuming we make it not religionbound it could maybe give faith/x population or something? Doesn't feel like %Faith would be very useful with the current faithsystem.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

The current NW system is a very welcome improvement, the vanilla system is annoying to say the least. however, it does seem like NW were geared more towards tall empires in vanilla so that might be something to think about to balance them.

 

[Funak]

The current NW system is a very welcome improvement, the vanilla system is annoying to say the least. however, it does seem like NW were geared more towards tall empires in vanilla so that might be something to think about to balance them.

That was exactly my point, wide empires somehow did fine in vanilla even with that NWsystem, a bit afraid they might benefit too much from the new system

 

[Stalker0]

NWs is a great place to add power back to compact empires since most people seem to agree that wide is superior.

Just noting here...I don't. I don't think vanilla wide is that useful.

Back to topic, I'm loathe to add more national wonders. I am fine doing some fixes on the ones we already have...but I don't want to add NWs just for the sake of "more is fun".

That said, if we have a specific balance issue to address, NWs could be a tool in the toolbox to do the job. But I would need to see this issue.

 

[mystikx21]

1) I would not add more. World Wonders are more fun if there's a "need" or demand for new wonders. My guess from the WW thread is that the work CEP did can be set up and aside as a separate mod pack that will be compatible with CPP, but isn't needed to address balance directly. It's just fun, and fun varies by request (see my own relative disinterest in the more luxuries mod). National Wonders are more functional, but I don't see one that is "missing" that we need to add any.

2) The new requirement system built on population is fine conceptually. We need to tweak the numbers and run some balance passes over both the requirements and the effects of the different wonders. But those are numbers mostly, not concepts. Numbers are easier to balance or salt to taste than concepts.

3) Agreed Nat College is one of the more ridiculous ones and EIC is funny.

 

[Funak]

1) I would not add more. World Wonders are more fun if there's a "need" or demand for new wonders. My guess from the WW thread is that the work CEP did can be set up and aside as a separate mod pack that will be compatible with CPP, but isn't needed to address balance directly. It's just fun, and fun varies by request (see my own relative disinterest in the more luxuries mod). National Wonders are more functional, but I don't see one that is "missing" that we need to add any.

2) The new requirement system built on population is fine conceptually. We need to tweak the numbers and run some balance passes over both the requirements and the effects of the different wonders. But those are numbers mostly, not concepts. Numbers are easier to balance or salt to taste than concepts.

3) Agreed Nat College is one of the more ridiculous ones and EIC is funny.

What about the changes you(I think) made to the NWs in CEP? Adding percentual values to the flat ones and flat values to the percentual ones? Adding specialists to them could also be a good idea.

 

[mystikx21]

There's a few that could have specialists. Oxford, EIC, Iron Works, I think the culture ones are fine with GW slots.

Hero Epic is fine at 15% without the all cities barracks requirement. I believe CEP bumped it to encourage building a barracks in all cities. Which isn't required now.

The bigger change in CEP was adding ideology bonuses to various NWs (instead of happiness). We can discuss that when we get there. The % bonuses were more important with National Wonders that required every city to build something.

I could see the following:
Nat College - nerfed down, maybe something like +4, 25%.
Iron Works -modest % bonus (10-15% at most, reduce the flat if so)
Grand Temple (depending on what we do with it, a 10-15% faith bonus would be okay, but is rather boring)
EIC needs to buff trade routes more.

 

[Funak]

Hero Epic is fine at 15% without the all cities barracks requirement. I believe CEP bumped it to encourage building a barracks in all cities. Which isn't required now.

Agreed the heroic epic was really expensive in vanilla requiring all baracks, now that baracks are actually going to be good, and with that requirement going down the heroic epic is going to be just fine.


Nat College - nerfed down, maybe something like +4, 25%.
Could do 3 flat science 25% science and a scientist. Your suggestion works fine aswell but specialists are fun(and actually a commitment to get the science out of)

Oxford could get the removed %science from NC, would like to see something actually 'punishing' people for saving Oxford too long. Atleast make it a tradeoff.

Iron Works -modest % bonus (10-15% at most, reduce the flat if so)
Agreed, maybe with an engineer aswell

Grand Temple (depending on what we do with it, a 10-15% faith bonus would be okay, but is rather boring)
Not sure if a 15% faithbonus would do much considering how faithgeneration works. could make it give one faith for every 3 or 4 pop or something instead, with a flat value to back that up.

EIC needs to buff trade routes more.
Make it increase maximum traderoutes by one? And if the AIs priorities can't be fixed atleast make it give incoming traderoutes as much gold to both players to not screw up the golddelta (If that is actually what the AI decides routes by)

 

[mitsho]

Doesn't the Grand Temple get replaced by those specialized-per-religon National Wonders? As in each founder belief gets one?

I may see the place for a religious National Wonder increasing religious pressure for your religion, but not one adding more faith. Or the increased religious pressure effect could be on one or two World Wonders. Makes probably more sense.

EIC should get looked at if it makes AI avoid sending trade routes to that city. Seems like a AI quirk that can be adressed by the decision algorithm for the AI rather than a problem with the wonder.

Agree on putting the % taken from the National College to Oxford (National University? It's strange that this one has a special name...)

 

[Lord Tirian]

National University? It's strange that this one has a special name...

Yeah, I always thought something like "Elite University" would fit better. On first glance, I always think Oxford University is a world wonder because of the specific name...

 

[Funak]

Doesn't the Grand Temple get replaced by those specialized-per-religon National Wonders? As in each founder belief gets one?

Not one hundred percent that this was agreed on but the idea was giving founders each a NW and having the grand temple open for everyone, because it is one of the solid ways to add some faithoutput to a compact player.