Nationalism as new Gov't Type ?!?!?!

[goodbye_mr_bond]

My hat's off to Andu for correctly arguing, first, that nationalism isn't a government type, and second, that it should rather be a tech on the tree. Obviously the nail was hit directly on the head, judging by Firaxis' statement.

 

[Lord Owen]

Well, if Nationalism exists as a government, why not include Feudalism as well?
And eliminating Fundamentalism because of "balancing": wrong answer! The right answer is: BALANCE it.

 

[Groggen]

Actually I think SMACs approach to governments is the best so far. It's not just a few pre-determined packages of government alternatives but a chance to adjust several different parts of what a government handles. This, to me, seems like a more realistic approach since we know that e.g. democracies differ in their social planning, environmental approach, attitude towards a free market etc. (Most of the "communist" states in the world call or have called themselves democratic which serves to illustrate the flexibility of the meaning of the word).

 

[Lord Owen]

I agree with you, Groggen.

Then, if they know how to do it, why don't?
Didn't Firaxis created SMAC?

 

[CurtSibling]

I'll say one thing, fellow emperors!
I can't wait to try out some wars & assaults with these multiple armies and great leaders!

Civ war will be a whole new ball game,
Imagine a WW2 scenario, with all the trade/culture and military factors of
Civ III!
It makes you go weak at the knees, really.

 

[jjoakim]

Originally posted by Anthony Coulter:

Capitalism to Democracy - True democracies are generally based on the idea that people should be allowed to do what they want. Capitalism (or, more specifically, a free-market economy) is based on the same thing. Additionally, both democratic and capitalist nations want people to own property with minimal government interference.
-----Anthony

I beg to differ, Democracy is not the idea that people should be allowed to do what they want. Democracy is surly a form of government. It’s the idea of a government were people, (the majority) is ruling, one man one wote. It doesn’t mean that democracy is equal to total freedom, in any form. But the government form is a good ground for a free market and capitalism.

There is also a great difference between socialism and communism. The ideology of communism is not so much a form of government as a way of distributing wealth, an economical theory if you will.

All ideologies can be fitted in a democratic society.

For an example; in my country, Sweden, we have a democratic government in a representative parliament form. (But we are still a monarchy in the sense that we have a politically powerless King instead of an elected president, witch would have made us a republic) The party in govern is The Socialistic labour party (sap), with support by the Green party (mp), and the Left party (v),(who by the way used to be communistic.) All these parties are in favour of an elected president, thus enforcing a republic.

The opposition consists of a number of rightwing parties. The Centre party (c), The liberals (fp), Christian democrats (kd) and the largest rightwing party, Conservatism party (m). All these parties are in favour of keeping the king and the monarchy.

So the different forms of government is not such a simple a task to classify…

 

[Groggen]

This is exactly why the system in SMAC is so great! You can chose to have free elections, combined with a planned economy, or perhaps a police state with a free market, or ... You name it!
This is a better representation of the way governments actually work and it is less provocing to those who do not agree that a free market is a requirement for a democracy (or whatever you find provocing).

 

[lkendter]

I suspect it is to late, but I would LOVE to have the government model from SMAC. Let me choose the various components for my government.

Consider China, still very much Communist in control of the people, yet in recent years much for economic freedom. Yet personal freedom hasn't changed. China of today is not China of 10 years ago, even though both are Communist. SMAC would let you do that!

 

[SunZi36]

I actually haven't played SMAC b4 but have played somes games that allows you to choose different aspects in your system of government (like SMAC). I think this is way better than having to choose between 5 predetermined types. And ONLY 5!! Even CTP2 has more than that.

And to Anthony:

Fascism, I think, is a system similar to "socialism" in which the government chooses who gets to do what.

No i think with Fascism (eg Hitler's Germany) you can still have free market economy. Fascism and socialism are actually seen as opposites in the political spectrum (extreme right and left respectively). A socialist government would be a welfare state (the extreme would be completely egalitarian). A fascist gov would care little about the welfare of the society as a whole and would encourage pursuit of interst and power of individuals or sections of the society. This is why minorities are often persecuted. In the extreme form it would consist of only one party and one leader with absolute power (eg Nazis and Hitler) who pushes the nation with an extreme ideal (eg nationalism).

 

[The Last Conformist]

While I agree that Fascism in the wide sense don't exclude the possibility of a market economy, Nazist Germany had a high degree of government control of the economy. During the war they essential had a Soviet-style plan economy.

Interestingly, despite this they never managed to gear their economy for "total war" to the same degree as, say, the British. I think that Civ2 seriously underestimates the warlike qualities of modern democracies, altho' this is probably necessary for the sake of balance.

On the other side, a look at the real world strongly suggests that Democracy is not the gov to choose for rapid population growth, so maybe Firaxis could give the democrats a bit more military bite and balance it by penalizing population growth? At any rate, the effect of WLTLD in Civ2 democracies is quite ridiculous.

Also, I agree with everyone who's praised the "social engineering" system of SMAC. With 4^4=256 possible combinations, it goes quite a way to represent the wild variety of real-world governmental systems.

 

[Agni Neres]

Hi all,

Some very good points have been made in this thread! Glad to be part of such a group! If I may add some thoughts:

Democracy, Republic, Totalitarinism, Despotism (Dictator, ala Hitler, Hussein) are forms of Government.

Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, are forms of Economy.

These can be mixed and matched to give different flavors of Nationalism.

Those who posted regarding SMAC have it right...there is no reason you can't have a Democracy with planned economy or a Totalinarinanism (ala China) with market economy.

In Civ 2, a communist govt in WLTC day gets the same trade arrows as a democracy/republic. Its in there, but hard to find! Easier in SMAC to be sure. Let's wait and see what Civ 3 offers on this line.

Cheers,
Agni

 

[Aristonico]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist:
Also, I agree with everyone who's praised the "social engineering" system of SMAC. With 4^4=256 possible combinations, it goes quite a way to represent the wild variety of real-world governmental systems.

Well, certain combinations are impossible, so the real figures would be defetitely lower. But, in any case, the combinations a re greater than the raw posibility of the 5+1 forms of government