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Native American "Archery" warfare

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by enKage, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Łódź, PL
    I'm currently playing NA on Monarch Pangea Map, my little religion block is in war with one another (Mansa vs Tokugawa), so i think i should suport one side :D

    The problem is I dont have techs required for equal fight yet and have to decide, beeline vassalage or machinery

    Supposing I have:
    barracks
    may switch to theocracy
    Stonehenge meaning Totem Pole every city
    = it all gives me 7 exp points for newly produced archery unit.

    All this exp gives a nice way to guerilla 3 for 50% withdraw chance, cause it would hardly be possibilities to have a lot of typicall offensive force beeter than rivals

    The options are:
    Feudalism giving Vasalage and Longbowmen
    Machinery giving Crossbowman

    a)
    Feudalism:
    - 2 additional exp piont from Vassalage meaning I would need only one battle to Guerilla 3 promotion (or military instructor xD)
    - longbowmen having additional hill defense, what with Guerilla 3 would make them very hard to destroy that era and future era as well

    b)
    Machinery:
    - only 7 exp pionts, so have to win 2-3 battles before guerilla 3
    or
    - nice advantage on Tokugawa in case of chosing first strikes promotions to minimalize added value of samurais (who actually is a possible rival in few years)


    c) any other way? not going for guerilla 3 mainly?

    What are your main techs when playing NativeAmerican? Is it a good idea to make one's army basing on archery?

    For very interested responders: current savegame attached View attachment enKage.CivBeyondSwordSave (yes i know, construction first, then feud/mach)
     
  2. Agramon

    Agramon Warlord

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    I'd take feudalism. Nice synergy. First strikes of longbowmen combined with some drill promotion. Produce large amount of cats and your longbowmen will hardly ever suffer a dent. Use damaged cats for city bombard or heal them while bombarding. Bring some CG2 LBs to defend. There you go.
     
  3. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Well, dunno.

    Here's the overview:
    Longbowman
    50:hammers:
    STR 6
    1 first strike
    25% city
    25% hills defense

    Crossbowman
    60:hammers:
    STR 6
    + 50% vs. melee (effective 9)
    1 first strike

    and your typical assault guy:
    Maceman
    70:hammers:
    STR 8
    +50% vs. melee units

    and here's the Samurai:
    70:hammers:
    STR 8
    +50 vs. melee
    2-3 first strikes before promotions

    Fact: IF you want to counter samurai, crossbowmen are the way to go because the samurai don't get a bonus vs. X-bowmen, but the X-bowmen do get a bonus vs. samurai (Xbowman STR 9 vs. Samurai 8.8 with toku's Aggressive).Their promotions are going to be similar (Samurai are not affected by protective trait) considering first strikes.

    Knights are available too late, but are an effective counter to Samurai considering their immunity to first strikes.

    I don't think Guerilla is the right path. First strikes mean your unit get less damage if it survives the combat round. Instead, bring more siege, upgrade it to CR1 or CR2 and let it do the dirty work. When the siege brings the kill chance into your favor, use the drill2 xbowmen (3 fist strikes) to kill them with minimal damage to your own units.

    Hmm, barracks +3, +3 from totem pole, +4 from civics that's +10, meaning level 3 promos. That screams for Drill2 + cover. I'd go Fedualism and then machinery before he gets his samurai on-line (toku is a slow techer so it might take him a while).

    EDIT: Oh crap I forgot SB is protective, so he starts with drill1. Ok then Drill2+Cover+shock or Drill2+Cover+Formation, depending on their resources.

    EDIT: Totem pole error :)
     
  4. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Couple of things to bear in mind:

    Theocracy only works for cities with your state religion.

    Totem Pole gives 3 xp, so with theo and vassalage, 10 xp LB (which is pretty much does it for me - I mean, you can PRODUCE a unit that allows you to build HE)

    LB are 10 shields less than xbow and do not require iron (do you have iron?)

    I would go fuedalism now. bear in mind that most mounted units are immune to 1st strikes, so your drill IV LB's have little advantage over them. Make sure you have some spears and dog soldiers for stack defense.
     
  5. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    I agree with AT.
    Also, build 2-3 spys to take out Tokugawa's Iron. If he has no Iron, he has no Samurai.
    This will slow his build time of these units. You could send galleys or caravels over to blockade his ports, forcing him to build units to take them out. Again getting him to change his production to have fewer strong land units to deal with.

    You will want Trebs for city assaults, and yes, you want archers, but, swordsmen with City attack2-3 work well on cities after Trebs have weakened them.
    If you have the specialists running, you could have Great people, like Scientists for an added tech gain over Tok.
     
  6. z0wb13

    z0wb13 undead

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    i think you should just take a giant stack of guerilla 3 units and see how it goes.

    i've never seen that. it probably wouldn't work that well, but +50% retreat is neat if you have a good medic unit.

    if you don't have time for that, as long as you have enough trebuchets, you can mop up with anything.
     
  7. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    If you really just want guerilla 3 units, then it's a lot easier to use the celts.
     
  8. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    I think it works out about the same, but, NA is a less obvious choice to get to it, and they have good starting food techs.

    Celts: Barracks (3xp) + Dun (free G1) = 3xp G2 archer.

    N.A. Barracks (+3xp) + Totem Pole (+3xp archers) = 6xp G2 archer.

    If one wants just archers with the G2+ promotions, then either Empire will work.
    If one wants other units, like swordsmen, then one has to go Celts.
    More versatile with unit types available for G1+ promotions.

    Of course, N.A. can choose other promotions for it's archers: CG3, Dr3 (as PRO they start with CG1 and Dr1 already), C2, C1 with Cov Shk Frm depending on opponent.
    More versatile with archers promotions.
     
  9. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    By the time you hit around Monarch, you should start to get experienced enough to avoid really terrible lines like that.
     
  10. Druin

    Druin Warlord

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    For what it's worth,

    I just finished waging a surprisingly successful cannon/longbow war against protective china with curis and muskets.

    I was able to lib steel via something like 6 GS bulbs and so had cannons a million years before everyone, but the main point was:

    I built, as I usually do in this case, plenty of CRII maces to mop up after cannon attacks and then also built 4 CGI DrIII archers with 8xp because I felt bad that I wasn't using Native America's UB at all. I figured they would protect my stack against ... I dunno ... other maces when on a hill while all my cannons were damaged? :p

    Well, as I worked my way through china ... slowly ... I had to use the archers to attack cities because enough of my maces died, and lo, they insta promoted to DrIV and started grinding through weakened defenders.

    Were I to wage this type of war again I would probably go with xbows instead of lbows because they are infinitely better at attacking and generally similar at defense. I would also run vass AND theo for instant DrIV. I just didn't know how useful this would be on a "lower" str unit due to how useless I have found DrIV to be in cannon/rifle wars.

    Consensus: DrIV was surprisingly effective even on a terrible offensive unit. Would play again! :)
     

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