1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

"Native American"

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Drewcifer, May 23, 2007.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,662
    Location:
    Scotland
    "Celtic" is a broad ethnic group, referring to Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx and Breton people (and some Galacians and Austurians also think of themselves as Celts as well). They (we) wouldn't object to the term "Celt", but people tend to go buy their national or regional identity, rather than by a broad term like Celt.
    The difference between "Celt" and "Native American", though, is that the Celts were a group of related linguistic and cultural groups, rather than a term for an entire race. The equivalent of "Native American" would just be "Caucasian".
     
  2. White Elk

    White Elk 99 > 1

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,126
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Indeed! The reason why some people may have a problem with the term Native American is that it lumps all the various peoples together. From this comes misunderstanding, disrespect and in the extreme it feeds racism. A caucasian from England would not want to be linked to the caucasians from Germany in such a way that the Holocaust becomes associated with them. This kind of generalization happens with Native Americans. This leads to erroneous stereotypes such as scalping, peacepipes, praying to many gods etc. The various peoples of North America were quite diverse. They had differant ways, language, religion, geneology etc.

    When speaking collectively of the aboriginal peoples of North America, I use the term Native American generically because there is no commonly used alternative for mainstream use. In some circles I use the term First Nations. But when I speak of the Lakota Nation I say Lakota. When I speak of the Nez Perce I say Nez Perce. In popular media these peoples should not be lumped together like they have in this game. If a specific leader or a certain custom is mentioned, then it should be attributed to the correct civilization.

    Since Sitting Bull is the leader, the civ should be the Lakota Nation. At the very least it should be called the Sioux Nation, but it would be great if this game would use this oppurtunity to be casual educators. But Firaxis has done the opposite and it kindof pisses me off how they did it. Apparently the Totem Pole will be Sitting Bulls Unique Building. That is just WRONG! It is ignorant and disrespectfull for Firaxis to associate the Totem Pole with Sitting Bulls people. The Totem Pole was not a part of their society. It had nothing to do with them. It perpetuates ignorant generalization of North American aboriginal socieites. After the harmfull misinformation that came out of the movie industry, and the erroneous sterotypes that persist in popular media, I think it is high time that creators of media be factually responsible for their content. Hundreds of thousands of people will likely buy this expansion and many of them may now wrongfully associate the Lakota peoples with Totem Poles. This might not sound like a big deal to some. But to me it is wrong for a historically based game like Civ to perpetuate this kind of ignorant stereotyping.
     
  3. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,392
    Location:
    Up North
    I don`t totally agree.

    I think you could see this from a different point of view. Sitting Bull was a Sioux Leader, but remember that his troops who defeated general Custer were from many different tribes. At that battle he was a leader for Lakota, Northern Cheyenne and Arapaho.

    As I said before, there were many Native leaders who tried to unite Native American tribes to fight against europeans. From that point of view we could see that "Native American" and "Sitting Bull" represent Native Americans who united in their fight against intruders.
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,662
    Location:
    Scotland
    True, but that still limits him to leading the Great Plain's tribes. It's not really fair to have him represent a group like the Iroquois, who had nothing to do with him, or even other plains tribes which he had no connection to, such as the Cheyenne.
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,316
    Well they really could make up for it by giving the Native Americans 2 Leaders out of the Gate, Sitting Bull and perhaps an Iroquis Leader.

    As it is, unfortunately, most of the pre-Columbian civilizations primary impact on history today was as subjugated populations. While it would be good to have Iroquois, Lakota, Cheyenne, etc. Firaxis proably decided they wanted to fit those multiple groups in without using all that space. So they got the Native Americans in Collectively [Sitting Bull for the name recognition, and the other tribes for having elements of potential contribution/impact on world history]
     
  6. WingedPaladin

    WingedPaladin He Keiki o Akua

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Perhaps not your European history. Remember, these people covered two continents and were a formidable threat to colonists gobbling up their land and claiming it as their own. They had their own millennia of history Europeans were generally ignorant of. The colonists' eyes saw "free land" and that superseded the reality that they were stealing from, killing, and driving out those to whom the land belonged for thousands of years.

    At least in a small way the injustice done is being recompensed in the form of affirmative action and self-determination in the form of reservations but the American Indian nations we see today doesn't even come close to what was 300 years ago. Foreign invasion and disease really took its toll on the great cultures of the American continents.
     
  7. sela1s1son

    sela1s1son Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    988
    Location:
    Boodleburg Imperial Palace in Switz
    Technically, all humans are nativ to Africa and/or the Middle East depending on which evolutionary theories you believe.

    Native Americans is to clunky and also seems further demeaning saying that none of the many cultures within that collective term are valid of being thier own civ (except for Meso-American...as they include the Aztecs/Mayans/Incans). Not giving them a "proper" name like Lakota/Sioux or Iroqouis is further demeaning really.

    Also Native American and American seem odd next to each other in the game.

    Iroqouis would be a good choice as would the Lakota/Sioux. Even using either of those two names would be MUCH better.

    A name that sounds like it could be the real name of a people is good, even Amerindian sounds at least partially like the name of a civ/nation.
     
  8. Reprisal

    Reprisal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2002
    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    I'm leaning toward calling Sitting Bull's civilization "the Sioux" though that's not necessarily what they called themselves. I wonder why they chose Totem Pole, since that's a part of the culture of the aboriginal people of the Pacific Northwest (like my tribe! :D ). There's another thread on this forum that suggests a Sweat Lodge instead, which works for me. If they were going to add a group of native peoples from North America with a totem pole, they best pick Chief Seattle or the Haida.
     

Share This Page