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Native Americans/ Protective Trait Rule

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by gregh87, Jul 26, 2007.

  1. gregh87

    gregh87 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
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    83
    Location:
    St. Louis/Knoxville
    I'm almost done with my first BTS game; playing as Sitting Bull, Prince, standard size map, continents, epic, standard rules. I caught my neighbor with his pants down defending his capital with 1 warrior, and he was the only one on my continent.

    I built stonehenge for totem poles in my cities, and then started making archers and later longbowmen with city garrison 3 and drill 1 promotions from the start, and upgraded them throughout the game.

    I took heed to the warning about massive naval invasions, and put about 6 defenders in all my coastal cities, hunkering down to try to win a space race or diplomatic victory. I also built Statue of Zeus so war against me would be painful.

    To my dismay (I had NO offensive units), three of my "friends" declared war on me-all when either pleased or friendly; I guess they couldn't resist going for the low guy on the power graph. Expecting them to go on a pillaging rampage, I was certain I was done for this game each time I was attacked.

    To my delight, they didn't pillage a single improvement! I had no answer to possible pillaging-it was riflemen and cannons versus my rifleman, and later infantry and artillery versus my infantry, and I was badly outnumbered. They simply parked their troops outside one of my coastal cities and threw everything at my city garrison 3, drill 1 (later pinch, too) defenders. My defensive bonuses were so great, I didn't lose a single defender!

    And to add to that, the last assault, from the then-leading Joao, with at least 5 transports full of infantry and artillery-his entire army apparently, was completely amphibious! He lost his entire army in one turn to my 6 city garrison 3 infantry in ONE turn. I had signed defensive pacts with a bunch of civs, and as soon as he declared war one me, he was at war with 5 civs, and he lost 4 of his 6 cities (I never attacked, too lazy) and he went from having a commanding lead in the space race (Apollo Program in 1800) to being last place. What an idiot!

    Anyone have similar experiences? If this is common, it should be a viable strategy to lure people into war by demanding things, have their army die at the hands of your defenders, and then move in for the kill with a counterattack. Sorry this got so long
     
  2. Grimus

    Grimus I

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    NJ, USA
    Cool story, I liked it. I'll have to give Sitting "Turtle" a try my next game and hunker down for a cultural or space race victory, daring any foolish Civ to try and attack me!

    I can't help but be reminded of my WoW days a long time ago as a "Protection Warrior", lol. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'...

    (Thank goodness I gave up on that game and never looked back to it since.)
     
  3. Civistynyt

    Civistynyt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
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    Location:
    Finland
    Did you face this just once, or is this a common problem?
     
  4. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
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    1,875
    Location:
    California, United States
    My problem is I played a similar game with Hemispheres, and my neighbor are the dutch. I've got him down to two cites, but he techs so much quicker than me I can't get "better" troops and he's stacked his cities with a hundred troops in each, it seems. I have to keep stealing techology to keep up, and it isn't going well.
     
  5. gregh87

    gregh87 Chieftain

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    I faced it once, and I've played once. It was well before 2000 B.C.; I beelined bronze working and upgraded my starting warrior to a dog soldier with money from the goodie huts.It was the Dutch, and I probably shouldn't have taken him out; I had no one to trade techs with until after optics-the other continent was far away.
     
  6. AlessioCerci

    AlessioCerci Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
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    I think that the computer doesnt really take into account the promotions of the defenders of the city it is attacking. Therefore if it sees 3 infantry it will think, "i can take it, i wont pillage anything cos im gonna have this city in a couple of turns".

    About the dutch warrior thing ive never seen a city defended by a warrior in any BTS game (on monarch though) so i would say it is not a common problem.
     
  7. gregh87

    gregh87 Chieftain

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    Does the AI have a different outlook on pillaging than in vanilla, or is my experience an exception to the rule?
     
  8. Pomp

    Pomp Chieftain

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    Location:
    Indianapolis
    In my current game, Ragnar is (well, was...I dogpiled onto his war with Wang Kon and finished him off) showing an odd reluctance to pillage. He sailed a galley back and forth around my coast for half of the war and never touched my unguarded fishing boats, and camped an archer just inside my borders without making a run for my stone quarry two tiles over.

    I suspect it might have something to do with the observation I've seen elsewhere that the AI just sort of seems to give up when it's beaten. He whipped his last two cities down to nothing to create a counterattack stack and after I took care of that, his few remaining units (i.e. the aforementioned galley and archer, as well as a couple axes that had been on their way to reinforce his big stack) just sort of stood around doing nothing while I took the cities.
     
  9. CivDude86

    CivDude86 King

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    Blake stopped the mass pillaging long ago in the BetterAI mod.
     
  10. Common Sensei

    Common Sensei Warlord

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    Native American Vassalage + Theocracy + Totem Pole makes for fun archery units. Can get Drill IV right off the bat.
     
  11. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe I committed the faux pas.

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    It might not be an AI shortcoming. When I'm going for a city I intend to keep, I don't pillage cottages/hamlets/villages/towns that will prove useful to me when I own them. I might wipe out farms or mines or easily made improvements, but even then I sometimes just park a unit on a mined hill so the AI can't use it to build reinforcements.

    OTOH, I have had the AI pillage my improvements when they weren't doing a naval invasion.

    I doubt that the AI doesn't consider promotions in its thinking. I base this on the fact that it isn't shy about promoting its own units as well as the fact that promotions count on the power graph, right? If I see a CG2 unit I think I'll sacrifice a couple units and then take it out. Doesn't everyone kind of think that? I mean it's not like a CG archer deters anyone from axe rushing. You just hope you have enough offensive units to wear it down, then kill it, then take the city.
     
  12. gregh87

    gregh87 Chieftain

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    Yeah, I only pillage if I'm going to raze cities, which isn't very often for me. I'm really happy that the AI isn't pillaging - it's extremely tedious and annoying to rebuild stuff the AI destroyed. Is drill 4 better than city garrison 3 for defending a city?
     
  13. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

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    I was having sentimental WoW feelings a few days ago, so I went to a WoW forum I use to love to see if it lit the spark again :eek:

    Fortunatly, there were two words in the first post I read that snapped me out of it : Rep Grinds

    That reminded me about everything I hate about that game.


    On topic: Sitting Bull seems like he's going to be a pretty powerful contender. I can't imagine it would be fun to to fight him early on. I'll have to put him in my next game/play as him and give it a whirl!
     
  14. Pomp

    Pomp Chieftain

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    While I can't argue with the joy of not having to rebuild improvements constantly, I'm hoping the behavior I saw from Ragnar is a fluke. It does make sense for the AI to avoid razing for the sake of razing, but in both situations I saw, it would have been beneficial for Ragnar to have razed my improvements, as he would have denied me access to a resource and picked up a few gold at no cost to himself, yet he failed to do so. In both cases, the units were not part of an invasion force (I assume the galley was there dropping off the spy of indeterminate national origin that I caught in Athens the next turn, and I have no idea why a lone archer wandered into my territory if not to raze), nor were they providing any benefit to Ragnar beyond basic line of sight intel.
     
  15. InFlux5

    InFlux5 King

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    Yes, Sitting Bull is pretty much the most protective civ in the game. He's been in pretty much every game I've played and he goes right to the bottom of the list of civs I'd consider attacking. But I don't want to take him out anyway. His leaderhead and music are the best!

    (Re: WoW. Rep grinds is right. You grind your rep for many factions so you can begin the raid grind. Then it's farming for consumables. And if you want to PvP you're pretty much too late. Arena season 2 gear is out, and teams that are wearing it will walk all over you. So glad I tore myself away from that game.)
     
  16. Jecrell

    Jecrell Ruled: Civ3 - Civ5

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    I noticed some AI problems when I was at war with Egypt; they'd send a couple of war chariots to sit on one of my rice tiles. They'd never move from that minor resource during the entire war. They didn't pillage anything else other than what was on that tile either.

    I think AI pillaging needs work. Although, Barbarians still get the job done.
     

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