Native Americans vs The Mongol Horde, Round 2

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Yeah well you gotta realize that the Mongols would ride all over the Indians all across the continent.
 

Turner

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Depends on where they came through. . .

There were plenty of war like tribes that could take care of themselves.

If they came through Alaska, they would have had to overrun the Tlingit. Not an easy task. Just ask Russia in 1802 & 1804. . . .
 

Xen

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Originally posted by WickedSmurf
Yeah well you gotta realize that the Mongols would ride all over the Indians all across the continent.

not the ones in heavey forests or mountains ;)
 

Djingis Khan

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This discussion leads nowhere. But we who have the even slightest idea and knowledge of the mongol empire and their armies know that they were virtually unbeatable. Would an army that defeated hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops have any difficulty with a bunch of natives without metal, horses and armour? No way!

PS. And xenon - I've never heard of any tremendous slaughter of spaniards in Arizona, nor have I heard about hundreds of thousands of auxillaries of Cortez (tens of thousands perhaps, but not more)

/DK M
 

Djingis Khan

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Originally posted by Turner_727
Depends on where they came through. . .

There were plenty of war like tribes that could take care of themselves.

If they came through Alaska, they would have had to overrun the Tlingit. Not an easy task. Just ask Russia in 1802 & 1804. . . .

The small russian militia-expeditions to Alaska in the 1800's can't be compared to the mongol world-conquering warmachine

/DK M
 

squeaky

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On an open battlefield Mongols would win 100% of the time. So the Sioux, Cheyenne, Kiowa, Comanche, etc. wouldn't have much of a chance.

The woodland Indians might have a chance defeating them. Mongols didn't do well in forests, like in Vietnam.

I think the hardest Natives for the Mongols to subdue would be the desert Indians in the southwest, like the Apache. These were some of the toughest fighters in the world. They could run across desert for days and nights without rest or water. They fought to the death, rarely surrendering. It was a saying that an Apache with a bow and arrows was feared more than ten men with guns.

Cochise, with 200 warriors, fought the combined armies of the U.S. and Mexico for ten years. Geronimo, with 35 warriors, fought and eluded 5,000 U.S. troops, 3,000 Mexican troops, and 500 Indian scouts for five years.

The Apache had huge desert canyons to fight and hide in, and could fight, escape, and never be found. The Mongols wouldn't be able to use their horses there, and there wasn't enough food for horses anyway in the middle of a desert.
 

Xen

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EXACTLEY! I just didnt know about my Native American brethrens war-time history in depth like that :D, but I'm glad people are FINALLY starting to see rerason, and get over the "mangol-mania" that seems to set over people...
 

D.Shaffer

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Oy. Ya know, I dont doubt the Mongols would have done fairly well for themselves (and would probably win) but not for the reasons some people seem to think.

A: People give metal to much credit. Iron and steel are more durable then stone weapons would be, but a stone weapon is still hard enough to penetrate metal armor. Never mind sling bullets which dont really need to penetrate far anyways.

B: The various mesoamerican tribes DID use armor. Usually padded cotton vests and leggings along with shields. Some of them even used metal attached to the armor/shields.

C: Tactics. Everyone seems to think the various native american warriors just charged en masse at each. While that was true to a degree with certain tribes, others had very well craft plans and tactics based on the material at hand. The Aztecs (Yes, it's a bit out of the time frame), were known for ambush tactics themselves

In any case, to those who thing they'd conquer all of the Americas, I'd like to see how well the Mongols face the mexican desert when they reach it, as well as the Navaho and Inca cities. Nevermind the jungles of the Amazon
 

Xen

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but he point is that eventually, over all, no matter what gains made, the Mogols would loose
 

pawpaw

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people talking about how hard the deserts are in sw america---hey theres a reason wave after wave of conquerors came out of mongolia and the surrounding lands--it was hard, a hard life bread a hard people, the desert wasn't going to be a problem. the same conditions the apache and comachee liked so did the mongolians.

ambush tactics by indian tribes--on steppe tribes the masters of ambush?

yes, geronimo with 35 men RAN from the cavalry for a number of years--would the mongols care? if you just took over a continent would you care a handful of people were loose in a couple thousand sq. miles of desert? actually memory serves me that the apachee were a peaceful people till the coming of the spanish and the horse

cortes had native troops but not 100,00's of thousands

the pueblo's did push the spanish out of sw america but you got to look at numbers, there was never more than a handful of spanish there--not to take anything from the pueblo, they did what large more war like tribes failed to due, win even if only for a while
 

Xen

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Mogolia is tepp land, if you want deserts, then look at the Gobi, i dont belive any permanent settlers form the mongols, or otherwise were situated there..., besides that, the Gobi, and southwest are very differnt deserts...
 

Thorgalaeg

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Spain never showed great interest in North America. IIn fact, in New Mexico or Arizona were only a bunch of spaniards. They were living there since Juan Oñate´s expedition in 1598 to 1680 when Pueblo indians expelled spaniards to El Paso. Nerverthless in 1692 spaniards came back and this time they stablished a more serious colony and never were expelled again.
 

Xen

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thatrs right A more serious colony, but its quite clear that little else then the are immdiatley surrounding Spanish colonies was under control
 

pawpaw

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looked up some info on peublo revolt

first only 3000 spaniards in new mexico--that's men, women, children---- including soldiers, scattered in dozens of ranches

the spanish force that crushed the rovolt in 1692 was a total of 200 men

so the sucess of the rovolt was due to overwhelming #'s at the beginning
 

Xen

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but they still did it :D, and just look at the numbers in play when the spanish conqured the Aztecs...
 

pawpaw

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Originally posted by Xen
but they still did it :D, and just look at the numbers in play when the spanish conqured the Aztecs...

this is the wrong arguement for you---that the natives can win IF they outnumber the attacker 10,000 to 300. because if the mongols ( in theory) land 20,000-40,000 cavalrymen its going to take a hella lot of natives to do the job
 

pawpaw

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Originally posted by stalin006
arizona new nexico, is not really known to me, can u give me more detail?

@ stalin this area is above texas on the map, it is mostly desert land ( quickly someone from there attacks me for my description:nono: ) it is where some of the hardest yet least glorious indian fighting took place
 

Xen

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right. It would, IF they were all pueblo...

they wouldnt be.

after all D.Shaffers' points are compleatlly valid...
 

stalin006

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I KNOW WHERE ARIZONA AND NEW MEXICO IS! i live in tx u know? :p

i want details on the so called glorious battle, was it like wounded knee?
 
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