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Natives Mods?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Creation & Customization' started by malcolm01234, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. malcolm01234

    malcolm01234 Just A Grain Of Sand

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    Are there any mods out that allow you to be the natives? :confused:
     
  2. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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  3. malcolm01234

    malcolm01234 Just A Grain Of Sand

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    Any ones that are actually from the Colonization Era?
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I do not know of any mod like that, sorry.
    (Playing Natives in "New World" setting.)

    Spoiler :

    I regularly check other mods for features I would like to use in our project.
    (Thus I believe I know a lot of CivCol-Mods.)

    I also did some technical research on that topic because befriended modders (TAC-team) were thinking about creating a "scenario based" mod where you could play Natives.
    I found a long list of possible technical problems, especially DLL.
    (Some were of course very TAC-specific. Meaning because of new features of TAC.)

    Of course it would be generally possible. :thumbsup:
    (However, heavy coding involved.)
     
  5. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    I've never heard of a mod doing that, but it's extremely easy to play natives. A little boring though...
    I've done it a lot for modding purposes. I've found many bugs thanks to that ...

    Tell me what you want, and it might be done! :goodjob:
    There is not much in Tenochtilan, but it belongs ... to me ;)
    See here:

    (of course I cheated a little... I added a transport unit to test special professions!)
     
  6. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Chieftain

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    It is very easy to make natives playable (you just have to change the "bPlayable" field in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml to 1), but the gameplay is uninteresting... almost no buildings, little options for play, etc. (what Robert said)

    That having been said, things could be done to improve them, perhaps to the point of making playing them be interesting, but a way for them to sell their goods, among other issues, would have to be thought out.
     
  7. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    That's right. In the 2071 mod, after making natives playable I gave them each their own "King" parent civ like the colonial nations have, which allows them to have access to Europe screen and the goods prices. Then gave them access to many of the units and buildings of colonial civs, with some unique buildings and units. If you want you could do a similar thing with the vanilla colonization natives.
     
  8. KJ Jansson

    KJ Jansson Chieftain

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    You are right, it's very easy to open access for Natives to units and buildings of colonial civilizations.

    However, to my opinion much more interesting create special sets of buildings for each Native civilization with new graphics and new names based on the historical data. Graphical and especially historical parts is rather complicated, of course, but much more difficult to teach AI to work correctly with Natives as a main player.

    This is much more complicated way, however results could be very-very interesting. Practically instead of Colonization of America by Europeans, we will have a new game where Native civilizations are fighting against European colonization.
     
  9. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    The only flaw in 2071 aliens is they have funny diplo. Natives can not trade techs or gold with natives, only settlements. everything else only to earth (europe) or colonists.

    another flaw of natives is you start with "Advanced start" and you might or might not ever even be discovered. I have had games where everyone has over 200 points before i discover them and natives don't have points on the scoreboard!

    Natives have funny diplomacy, the AI colonists don't seem to know how to handle a game where the human is not a colonist - the AI acts very funny such as it won't war or explore - its like they spend all game sailing around looking for you AND they never find you.

    So they have advance start (ala civ 4) and can only build warriors. Every time you meet a colonist - they get gold, but you don't lose the ammount you gain.

    once i tried to zero my gold but colonists were still getting paid just to meet me. However they DO get your units. It is awful when you finally get 2 citizens born and both become british.

    The natives don't have a "europe" to trade with, and the gameplay is whack. For instance, you can park warriors along the edge of the world and kill a city the second it is founded. Then, the AI will forget its at war with you and try to settle it again with king units. It will repeat this until it is out of the game. Other times they will settle across the world away and you will never have a chance to interact with them again.


    The natives in Col 2071 give the natives quite a few buildings but SOME of them crash or cause CTD. They have kings and they can act like normal civs with a few catches. They get a free saucer (boat) but it starts all the way across the world and moves 2 spaces a turn. They take forever to travel to earth, most of their crappy citizens - if stripped of their professions can not be given a new profession.

    However, they use tile improvements such as ancient ruins, burial mounds and other things colonists explore - the natives use for bonuses and tile improvements.

    In conclusion, the implementation of aliens in 2071 demonstrates a lot of the problems with native empires and created a context to fix them. In the current build of 2071, i finally FINISHED A GAME for the first time in colonization history.

    This mod is one of my favorites and for those who want to mod natives - this mod gives a strong base of what can be done with them.
     
  10. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    ahh and the patch wants me to log in and i have no accounts to these other sites...
     
  11. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Chieftain

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    The same happened to me, I was about to comment on that...
     
  12. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Thanks for the comments. I didn't realise the weplayciv site made you log in to get patches, I'll add the current patch to the top of the 2071 thread as well. Let me know if you get any crashes, this patch seems to be more stable, I think some of the crashes were caused by aliens trying to use PROFESSION_COLONIST when they didnt have access to it.

    I am currently working on a new update integrating Androrc's cool new Domestic Market mod; this should be especially great for the Aliens to help them gradually build up their own economies independent from Earth.

    I would love to try making a simple change to AI behavior by inactivating any special native behaviors programmed by Firaxis, and letting everyone use the normal behavior of colonial civs. If native civs used the colonial civ behavior, and colonial civs behaved more like the natives were normal colonial civs, it would solve the problems you mentioned and make the game lots better. (I'd think the only special behavior script that would need to remain is having only colonial civs send missionaries) Androrc or anyone else who knows the SDK well, would you know of a way to achieve this?

    That's actually cause I could only figure out how to make it start on a random place :blush: And you need to get it before turn 1 or else the Progenitor Exarch will give you a Saucer on Earth.

    The aliens also start with some big advantages such as starting with populated cities already in place, greatly superior harvest of raw materials, good potential for internal population growth, etc. So that needs to be balanced against having a lot harder time than colonials in areas like manufactured goods, tech discovery, and trade with Earth. That's why I forced them to slowly build Ziggurats in their cities to give the Humans a 50-turn head start.

    Weren't you able to transport goods and colonists to Earth using your Saucer? I'm interested to hear more about how the alien gameplay went; were you forced to abduct human specialists from Earth to enable advanced techs and manufacturing? :scan::p I think maybe getting Crosses/Abduction should be made easier for them, but would kind of like if that's much more challenging than for the human civs. Currently their specialists like the Venerable Elder and Brilliant Polymath are "built" using advanced goods rather than educated; and to truly unlock advanced Earthling knowledge they need to kidnap human scientists from Earth. Since they can get so many basic aliens it might be too easy if they could all get educated to advanced specialists.

    What do you mean by this? :confused:
     
  13. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Chieftain

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    That would depend on the specific issue to tackle on. In regards to allowing natives to have more options in the diplomatic negotiations than just trading settlements, that should be rather straightforward to do if you wish to do it. From line 3157 of your mod's CvPlayer.cpp you have the following code:

    Code:
                if (isNative())
    		    {
    		        if (!GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).canDoCivics((CivicTypes)item.m_iData1))
                    {
                        return false;
                    }
    		    }
    
    		    if (GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).isNative())
    		    {
    		        return false;
    		    }
    
    If you remove that, the game should allow natives to trade techs just like colonial civilizations can (including being able to receive techs from colonial civilizations).

    About trading gold, on line 15151 of CvPlayer.cpp you have this code:

    Code:
    	else if (!isNative())
    
    If you change it to:

    Code:
    	else
    
    That should allow natives to trade gold normally.

    If you want to allow natives to trade maps as well, you should change this code (from line 3211 of CvPlayer.cpp):

    Code:
    		if (!isNative() && !kWhoTo.isNative())
    		{
    			if (getTeam() != kWhoTo.getTeam())
    			{
    				if (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).isMapTrading() || GET_TEAM(kWhoTo.getTeam()).isMapTrading())
    				{
    					return true;
    				}
    			}
    		}
    
    To this:

    Code:
    		if (getTeam() != kWhoTo.getTeam())
    		{
    			if (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).isMapTrading() || GET_TEAM(kWhoTo.getTeam()).isMapTrading())
    			{
    				return true;
    			}
    		}
    
    In regards to score, I think that by changing CvPlayer::calculateScore that would be solved. From line 2502 of your mod's CvPlayer.cpp:

    Code:
    	if (isNative())
    	{
    		return 0;
    	}
    
    If that part of the code is deleted, it should allow calculation of score for natives.
     
  14. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Thanks for the advice. I am going through CvPlayerAi.cpp and CvCityAi.cpp to search for isNative and commenting out certain codeblocks that look like they could affect native AI behavior in a bad way. It's looking good, but theres still the problem I cant identify of starting with no access to Inventors House building in some games.
     
  15. tjowens

    tjowens Chieftain

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    Hello. I am working on a blog post for Play the Past that explores how the game models native peoples and I would love any additional insights into what other bits of the scripts control what you can and can't do as a native.

    I think it is really interesting to see what happens when you turn on bPlayable for natives. It is really neat to see from discussions in this thread how the game encodes the model for native peoples.

    Are there any other key things I should think about mentioning or considering for my post?

    Oh, and unless anyone in the thread has objections I am planning to quote and point to it. I imagine people will want to know more about how people are actually working with the game and I would like to cite and give you guys credit for that. Oh, and if anyone would like to follow up with me off the boards my email is trevor dot johnowens at gmail dot com.
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    The game / Vanilla (meaning game without mods) was not designed for Natives to be playable by human at all.

    This discussion is about possibilities and problems to create a mod that would allow Natives to be playable.

    If you simply switch Natives to "bPlayable" it is pretty much useless.
    No buildings, no ships, no real economy, no chances to win, features not working for them, ...

    Basically you could do nothing more than kill the Europeans on your continent before they become too strong and then get bored.
    And of course you could kill the other Natives on that continent, too.
    Pretty boring, if you ask me.

    You need to do a lot more to make Natives interesting to be played by a human player.
    (And fix serious bugs that could occure.)

    However, doing so would probably make the game unatmospheric and unrealistic.
     
  17. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    That's an interesting site and blog post Trevor. In the vanilla game, the natives were clearly intended to be empty foils for a colonial player; when enabled as playable they can do essentially next to nothing except move units around, which is both telling and very uninteresting for gameplay.

    In making the 2071 mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=349050), after setting natives to playable and giving them access to units and buildings, I found that I also had to give them a "King" parent civ to allow them to have any market prices for goods, since these depend on having access to the Europe screen. My programming knowledge is limited, but I basically tried to remove several of the isNative checks in the DLL to allow them to behave more similarly to "regular" civs. In general, native-specific code in the existing game seems to focus on inactivating the normal economic planning, trade, and diplomacy functions available to other civs, and producing Horses and Brave units. There was also a "Native Yield Destruction" function that removes most excess goods they produce, presumably to keep them from getting too wealthy.

    KJ Jansson made a mod which includes slavery and the triangle trade, and I think that is being incorporated in the planned Religion & Revolution mod.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361561
     
  18. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Chieftain

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    About the need to give them a king parent civilization, you could instead remove the "getParent() != NO_PLAYER" checks that you deem unnecessary.
     
  19. tjowens

    tjowens Chieftain

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    Thanks for that info guys! I think there might be something interesting to say about how the Colonization mod of Civ explicitly disables particular features of peoples in the game. Still working through this in my head but I am poking around a bit in the XML based on your guidance here.

    In any event, once I put the post up I will be sure to stop by here and leave a link. Any comments you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  20. tjowens

    tjowens Chieftain

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    In case anyone is interested, we have two posts up about Colonization on Play the Past. Both touch on ideas you all pointed out here. See http://www.playthepast.org/?p=2509 and http://www.playthepast.org/?p=2531 we are still going to write some more posts on this and ultimately plan on working on a book chapter as a result of this. So any and all feedback you guys have for us would be appreciated.
     

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