Natural and man-made wonders are too obscure and weak

[StargazingDog]

Anyone else feel this way? Civ 5 & 6 both have instantly recognizable natural and man-made wonders. In Civ 7, outside of classics such as Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, etc., they all just blend together. To me, they may as well be randomly generated names. It doesn't help that we can't right click on the icon to pull up the civilopedia entry and read about it.

Relatively weak abilities... "Ooh I can now build the bippity boppity that give +4 culture on a coast" and such. I'm never excited nor particularly care about racing for a wonder. Remember getting two workers and increased worker speed for Pyramids? Increased builder charge on all builders? Both were game changers. Pyramids now? +1 gold/production on rivers in that particular city. Is it even worth the production time?

As for natural wonders, I think I've had two per game on each entire (small) map.

 

[CoconutTank]

I haven't really played Civ 7 for very long, but there are some wonders that I do keep an eye out for.

Gate of All Nations gives +2 war support and is available pretty early on.
Weiyang Palace gives +6 influence per turn, and given how difficult it is to get influence I do try to build it when I get the chance.
Oxford University grants 2 free techs, which is already pretty good but it also grants a wildcard attribute point. Very worth it imo.
Brandenberg Gate makes the city it's in impervious to war weariness and grants +5 happiness to each city you've conquered.

I agree that Civ 7 Pyramids does seem weak. It's difficult to imagine it having the potential of something like Civ 6 Petra in a desert city, since a city probably won't have quite as many river tiles to exploit.

Edit: Oh I forgot about this wonder at the moment, but El Escorial is also really nice to have. Mainly it gives +1 settlement limit and a bunch of happiness to nearby cities.

 

[Atlas627]

I look forward to finding a site for the Pyramids in this game, and I'd say I do in about a 1/4 or 1/3 of my starts. If I don't get one, I've probably found a good site for something else, and I should rush that instead. That's strategy. So as far as the Wonders being unimpactful, I simply disagree. Build the ones that are, for your particular game, and ignore the others.

For the Natural Wonders, I usually find 1 or 2 to race for, and another 1 or 2 once Exploration Age hits. They're pretty strong, I feel.

As far as them being obscure, we've heard this complaint before. For many, Civ is a great place to learn about new wonders, civilizations, and important people from history. Yes the Civilopedia is lacking, but you have the internet and the name of the wonder!

 

[ZeroSuitSenpai]

So far most built wonders seem not worth the production to me in Civ 7 tbh. But I need more time played to really say.

 

[evonannoredars]

There's quite a few which are powerful, but many of them don't feel very flavourful. There's a lot that just give extra resource slots, more yields on things or otherwise fairly unexciting abilities. The tiny symmetrical icons also don't help with making them feel distinct in the tech tree. But as with civs, the devs will likely be able to make more interesting ones as they get experience with the game and how they can bend it.
Natural wonders have always been either boring or exciting imo, I like the abilities of Uluru and Redwood Forest and hope we get more that work similarly.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

There are far too many Wonders in the game now IMO so each loses a bit of lustre.

As for Natural Wonders it's weird how most are just yields but some have an ability as well. All seems a bit unbalanced but that's the kind of thing that is easy to fix.

 

[UWHabs]

I think the wonders are intentionally not as game-breaking, but at the same time, I feel they're cheaper than many iterations in the past. Wonders are much closer in cost to a regular building, so I think the fact that they're relatively cheap to build means you don't get super frustrated when you miss out, so the fact that they're not necessarily much better than some of the unique buildings doesn't matter quite as much. Like even if you're playing at a high level game, I feel like a lot of the wonders you can actually pause and build them, rather than like high level civ 6 where you have to essentially clearcut your entire starting area and play with fire to try for an early wonder.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think the game will also is going to change quite significantly regarding wonders in the coming months. We'll have 8 civs with associated wonder each, plus 4 wonders in second DLC pack. That's 12 new wonders or 4 per age.

They clearly inflated compared to previous games, but I can't say it's bad. I still build and enjoy them.

 

[marius_kaparius]

A shout out to Hoerikwaggo where it grants certain buildings (happiness?) an adjacency bonus both from being a mountain and a wonder. There is an edge where you can pick up three adjacencies and get a very powerful district.

I’m noticing with 7 that a lot of the power of something is from the indirect effect. I picked Proletariat civic which didn’t seem to do much with a +6 food bonus late game but essentially allowed me to turn farm tiles into Urban without giving up food. The real power then comes from turning that pop into a specialist.

 

[Alucard648]

I wish that wonder race could play extremely important role in gameplay, just like in Civ 2. All hail for "Wonder Power" game mode.

 

[StargazingDog]

There's quite a few which are powerful, but many of them don't feel very flavourful.

Maybe this is the crux of my issue. Wonders are relegated to the very bottom of the production list, far down below a dozen units, and listed with the same bland "+1 gold +4 culture" icons as everything else. They are shown in the tech trees as tiny square icons that all appear the same from a distance, and are next to 2-3 other tiny square icons. Most of the time, I am not even aware that I can build a particular wonder.

They don't feel distinct. Aren't treated as important. They are just another building in a sea of buildings. I miss desperately trying to settle near stone or marble. I miss the tension of quickly getting my coastal city production high enough to get the great lighthouse before anyone else.

I just finished my second game and heading into my third. I will make an effort to really look into each wonder.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I miss desperately trying to settle near stone or marble. I miss the tension of quickly getting my coastal city production high enough to get the great lighthouse before anyone else.

Really insightful observation.

 

[queenpea]

It would be helpful if you could queue techs and civics in the trees so you could b-line to certain wonders!

 

[pjotroos]

What makes them worth the production cost for me in the first two eras is primarily the fact they don't become obsolete, but I agree they feel less flavourful so far. I say "so far", because I came around on some of the Civ 6 wonders after initially dismissing them, once I became more familiar with that game.

There's also lots of them, because each civ now needs their own, so they are definitely a mix of very recognisable landmarks and local heritage sites; when Poland eventually comes, I'm sure we'll get something like Wawel castle, which is a very nice building, but not on the level of something like Mont Saint Michel or Neuschwanstein when it comes to flavour or uniqueness (I'd have preferred Malbork castle, personally, but that's not actually polish-built, so it doesn't fit the theme of Civ 7 wonders).

 

[Menocchio]

I agree that wonders often feel lacklustre and tend to give more universal, rather than particularly unique, bonuses—so not very flavourful. My hunch is that wonders are balanced around the fact that they're core for adjacencies and that shapes how they're intended to be used, but I'd imagine most people would be interested in building them for their unique qualities.

 

[Mesix]

The wonders do not seem very wonderful. In many cases, a standard building is a better choice (and can be built faster).

 

[Aurelesk]

There are 45 Wonders in the game. 21 of them are newcomers. Probably to fit the regional Wonder of a Civilization: there are a few obscure ones (at least for me). Some are due to restrictions: the Mayan have the Mundo Perdido because the Chichén Itzá is a Mayan Exploration era Wonder, but the Mayan are in the Antiquity era.

The "Petra" wonders that give yields to Rural tiles don't feel very great, as they can only be built in Cities and not Towns. They are exceptions: the Mughal allows to buy Wonders in Town with Gold. Some are very niche: the Forbidden Palace applies to Great Walls unique improvement which allows to have an amazing amount of Culture.

Spoiler Here an idea of what it can do :

The neat part is that it doesn't lose much Yields in the Modern era. The Ming Civics allowed to get +2 Gold on Great Walls, which is lost when we go in the Modern Era. The tile becomes a 5 Food, 1 Production, 4 Gold (-2) and 7 Culture. We have 8 of them in the City, and ton of 5 Culture tiles in the empire. Culture is not a problem in that game anymore.

So I made a list of the Wonders so we can better visualize:

​

Civilization​	Wonder​	Effects​	Production​	Requirement​	Novelty?​
Aksum​	Great Stele​	Gain 200 Gold when you construct a Wonder in this Settlement, including this one. Must be placed on Flat Terrain.​	275​	Writing (Tech)​	​ No (Ethiopia's UI in Civilization V)​
Egypt​	Pyramids​	+1 Gold and Production on Minor and Navigable River tiles in this Settlement. Must be placed on Desert and adjacent to a Navigable River.​	275​	Masonry (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Greece​	Oracle​	+2 Culture. When gaining rewards from a Narrative Event, gain an additional 10 Culture per Age. Must be placed on Rough Terrain.​	375​	Public Life (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Han​	Weiyang Palace​	+6 Influence. Must be placed on Grassland.​	375​	Citizenship (Civic)​	Yes​
Khmer​	Angkor Wat​	+3 Happiness. +1 Specialist Limit in this Settlement. Must be placed adjacent to a River.​	450​	Philosophy (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Maurya​	Sanchi Stupa​	+2 Happiness. +1 Culture for every 5 excess Happiness in this Settlement. Must be placed on Plains.​	375​	Citizenship (Civic)​	Yes​
Maya​	Mundo Perdido​	+1 Happiness and Science on Tropical Terrain in this Settlement. Must be placed in Tropical.​	275​	Mysticism (Civic)​	Yes​
Mississippian​	Monks Mound​	+3 Food. +4 Resource Capacity in this Settlement. Must be placed adjacent to a River.​	450​	Commerce (Civic)​	​ No (City-State's UI in Civilization VI)​
Persia​	Gate of All Nations​	+2 Support on all wars. Must be placed adjacent to a District​	275​	Discipline (Civic)​	Yes​
Rome​	Colosseum​	+3 Culture. +2 Happiness on Quarters in this Settlement. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	450​	Entertainment (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
None (Greece?)​	Colossus​	+3 Gold. +3 Resource Capacity in this Settlement. +1 Economic Attribute Point. Must be placed on Coast adjacent to land.​	450​	Skilled Trades (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
None (Assyria?)​	Dur-Sharrukin​	Acts as a Fortified District that must be conquered. +3 Combat Strength to Fortified Districts in all Settlements. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	275​	Discipline (Civic)​	Yes​
None (Silla Korea?)​	Emile Bell​	Gain a unique Diplomatic Endeavor called Ginseng Agreement that grants Food to both Leaders' Capitals. +1 Diplomatic Attribute Point. Must be placed on Rough Terrain.​	275​	Code of Laws (Civic)​	Yes​
None (Tonga?)​	Ha'Amonga 'A Maui​	+2 Culture +1 Culture and Food on Fishing Boats in this Settlement. +1 Cultural Attribute Point. Must be placed on Grassland or Tropical and adjacent to Coast.​	375​	Navigation (Tech)​	Yes​
None (Babylon?)​	Hanging Gardens​	+1 Food on Farms in this Settlement. +10% Growth Rate in all Cities. +1 Expansionist Attribute Point. Must be placed adjacent to a River.​	275​	Irrigation (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
None (Goths?)​	Mausoleum of Theodoric​	+3 Production. +100% yields and HP from pillaging. +1 Militaristic Attribute Point. Must be placed adjacent to Coast.​	450​	Organized Military (Civic)​	Yes​
None (Maurya?)​	Nalanda​	+3 Science. Gain 1 Codex. Has 2 Codex slots. +1 Scientific Attribute Point. Must be placed on Plains.​	450​	Literacy (Civic)​	​ No (City-State's UI in Civilization VI)​
None (Nabatean?)​	Petra​	2 Gold. +1 Gold and Production on Desert Terrain in this Settlement. Must be placed on Desert​	375​	Code of Laws (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
None (Teotihuacan?)​	Pyramid of the Sun​	+3 Culture. +2 Culture on Quarters in this Settlement. Must be placed on Flat Terrain adjacent to a District.​	450​	Mathematics (Tech)​	Yes​
None (Qin?)​	Terracotta Army​	+2 Production. Grants a free Army Commander when built. +25% Army experience. Must be placed on Grassland.​	375​	Tactics (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Abbasid​	House of Wisdom​	+3 Science. Gain 3 Relics. Has 3 Relic slots. +2 Science from Great Works. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	475​	Society (Civic)​	Yes​
Chola​	Brihadeeswarar Temple​	+3 Influence. All Buildings gain a +1 Happiness Adjacency for Navigable Rivers. Must be placed adjacent to a Navigable River or on a Minor River.​	475​	Diplomatic Service (Civic)​	Yes​
Hawai'i​	Hale o Keawe​	+2 Culture. Constructing a Building on Coast Terrain grants Culture equal to 50% of its cost. Has 3 Relic slots. Must be adjacent to Coast, but not adjacent to Tundra.​	400​	Inspiration (Civic)​	Yes​
Inca​	Machu Pikchu​	+4 Gold. +2 Resource Capacity in this Settlement. +4 Culture and Gold on all Buildings adjacent to this Wonder. Must be placed on a Tropical Mountain.​	550​	Urban Planning (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Majapahit​	Borobudur​	+3 Happiness. +2 Food and Happiness on Quarters. Must be placed adjacent to Coast.​	475​	Bureaucracy (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization V)​
Ming​	Forbidden City​	+2 Culture. +2 Culture and Gold on all Fortification Buildings in this Settlement. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	400​	Authority (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Mongolia​	Erdene Zuu​	+4 Culture. Creating a Cavalry Unit grants Culture equal to 25% of its cost. Must be placed on Flat Desert, Plains or Tundra.​	550​	Imperialism (Civic)​	Yes​
Norman​	White Tower​	+4 Happiness. +4 Happiness in this Settlement for every Tradition slotted in the Governement. Must be placed adjacent to a City Hall.​	550​	Sovereignty (Civic)​	Yes​
Shawnee​	Serpent Mound​	+4 Influence. +3 Science and +2 Production to all Unique improvement in this Settlement. Must be placed in Grassland.​	550​	Astronomy (Tech)​	Yes​
Songhai​	Tomb of Askia​	+2 Gold. +2 Resource Capacity in this Settlement. +2 Gold and +1 Production in this Settlement for every Resource assigned to it. Must be placed on Desert​	400​	Mercantilism (Civic)​	Yes​
Spain​	El Escorial​	+3 Happiness. Has 3 Relic slots. +1 Settlement Limit. +4 Happiness on Cities within 7 tiles of this Wonder. Must be placed on Rough Terrain.​	475​	Colonialism (Civic)​	Yes​
None (French Kingdom?)​	Notre Dame​	+4 Happiness. When in a Celebration all Specialists provide +3 Culture. Start a Celebration immediately after constructing this Wonder. Must be adjacent to a River and a District.​	550​	Social Class (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization V)​
None (Mon? Burma?)​	Shwedagon Zedi Daw​	+4 Science. +2 Science on all Rural tiles in this Settlement that have at least 1 Happiness. +1 Wildcard Attribute Point. Must be placed adjacent to a Lake​	550​	Education (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization IV)​
America​	Statue of Liberty​	+6 Happiness. Spawns 4 Migrants. Must be placed on Coast adjacent to land.​	1400​	Capitalism (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Buganda​	Muzibu Azaala Mpanga​	+4 Food. +2 Food on all Lake tiles. +2 Culture and Happiness on Lake tiles in this Settlement. Must be placed adjacent to a Lake.​	1000​	Natural History (Civic)​	Yes​
French Empire​	Eiffel Tower​	+5 Culture. +2 Culture and Happiness on Quarters in this City. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	1200​	Radio (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Meiji Japan​	Dogo Onsen​	+4 Happiness. This Settlement gains a Population every time you enter a Celebration. Must be placed adjacent to a Coast.​	1000​	Social Question (Civic)​	Yes​
Mexico​	Palacio de Bellas Artes​	+5 Culture. +2 Happiness on Great Works. +10% Happiness in this City. Has 3 Artifact slots. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	1200​	Globalism (Civic)​	Yes​
Mughal​	Red Fort​	+4 Gold. Acts as a Fortified District that must be conquered. +50 HP to this tile and all City Centers. Must be adjacent to a District.​	1000​	Military Science (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization V)​
Prussia​	Brandenburg Gate​	+6 Production This Settlement suffers no Happiness penalties from War Weariness +5 Happiness in conquered Settlements Must be placed adjacent to a District​	1400​	Militarism (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization V)​
Qing​	Chengde Mountain Resort​	+6 Gold +5% Culture for every other Civilization with which you have a Trade Route. Must be placed adjacent to a Mountain.​	1400​	Hegemony (Civic)​	Yes​
Russia​	Hermitage​	+4 Culture. +10% Culture in Cities that have a Great Work on display. Has 3 Artifact slots. Must be placed on Tundra.​	1000​	Modernization (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
Siam​	Doi Suthep​	+4 Influence. +5 Culture and Gold for every City-State you are Suzerain of. Must be placed on Rough Terrain.​	1000​	Political Theory (Civic)​	Yes​
None (British Empire?)​	Oxford Univeristy​	+4 Science. Grants 2 free Technologies. +1 Wildcard Attribute Point. Must be placed adjacent to a District.​	1000​	Academics (Tech)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​
None (Mughal?)​	Taj Mahal​	+5 Gold. +50% Celebration duration. +1 Wildcard Attribute Point. Must be placed on Plains.​	1200​	Nationalism (Civic)​	​ No (Wonder in Civilization VI)​

 

[UWHabs]

I agree that wonders often feel lacklustre and tend to give more universal, rather than particularly unique, bonuses—so not very flavourful. My hunch is that wonders are balanced around the fact that they're core for adjacencies and that shapes how they're intended to be used, but I'd imagine most people would be interested in building them for their unique qualities.

Also, the fact that every civ gets a boost to a specific wonder means if one wonder was way too good, that would potentially give a civ too much of a leg up. Especially if it was one that normally comes late in the tree, being able to get it early AND at a discount would be crazy.

 

[Yzman]

After reading the list it seems that they are catered towards specific paths so not every wonder should feel great to you. I do culture and science a lot so wonders like house of wisdom and nalanda are critical.

 

[CoconutTank]

Nalanda is pretty cool. The Literacy civic takes a while to get to tho...