Natural Wonder Elimination Thread

hhhhhh · Aug 28, 2020

This thread is moderator approved, with thanks to @Browd.

To help frame the debate, I'd like to introduce a few basic assumptions:

Wonders are judged according to the present version of the game, complete with all expansions (including NFP).
This is assessed in the single-player context, against AI players.
You may take how likely a wonder appears into account. (I believe, due to map generation shenanigans, some wonder like dedicate arc actually appears more often than others.)
All other map setting are assumed to be normal.
The player civilization is set to random.
Secret Societies and Apocalypse Mode are assumed to be off.
The difficulty is assumed to be the highest that you are comfortable with.

To help make sure that voting runs smoothly, the rules are as follows:

You may vote roughly once every 24 hours.
Each vote must copy the list of Wonders and scores from the post above, add one point to one Wonder, and subtract three points from another. If a Wonder reaches 0 points or less, the next voter must delete it from their list.
You must write a reason for each upvote and downvote.
Please highlight your votes in some way (bold, italicize, color, something that will draw attention).
Incomplete votes will not be counted.
Non-voting posts will be deleted.

As a matter of etiquette:

Please don't take advantage of the "roughly" once every 24 hours. We're not all around at the same time every day, so I don't expect votes every 24 hours like clockwork, but if it starts sliding into morning and evening votes, I reserve the right to notify a moderator.
Please don't vote "vexatiously" by repeatedly up-voting or down-voting the same candidate. A few consecutive votes are acceptable if you're providing a good reason or it is part of the on-going conversation, but don't abuse this, or once again I will have to notify a moderator.

hhhhhh · Aug 28, 2020

Here is the list of wonders for you to start with. I make every wonder starts at [16] so the initial upvote won't be too important. And since there are only 34 natural wonders this thread will be short.

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [16]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [16]
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [16]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [16]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [16]
Pamukkale [16]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [16]

hhhhhh · Aug 28, 2020

Summary

1. Païtiti (#∞) Latest DLC natural wonder being unnecessarily OP and it's awesome to have it in your game.

2. Mount Roraima (#282) Gives you some sweet spots for science and faith. It's a bit too large, so you may need to settle 3 cities to enjoy its full effect.

3. Torres del Paine (#274) Can give you some 2/4, 3/4, 4/3, 4/2 tiles easily.

4. Piopiotahi (#269) Early culture is good. Gold is not bad either. It's always coastal so it's like a mixture of a weaker version of Galapagos and Païtiti.

5. Yosemite (#268) It's nice that they provide food. So at least two tiles are awesome.

6. Eyjafjallajökull (#259) Best volcano in game. Can turn snow tiles into yield porn.

7. Ik-Kil (#255) Can help a lot of districts and wonders, but need careful planning. If it's blocked by resources and/or mountains then no good.

8. Pamukkale (#226) Good adjacency, extra era score can get you into Golden Age easier. A bit rare to appear and slower than direct bonus though.

9. Tsingy de Bemaraha (#223) 6 science and 6 culture is like a mini Mausoleum.

10. Zhangye Danxia (#221) No yields but give you Great Person Points! It's a natural wonder with personality.

11. Matterhorn (#215) Decent culture adjacency and bonus. If it's multiple tiles then it's certainly Top 10.

12. Giant's Causeway (#213) If it's close to your most productive city and front line, then good. Otherwise by the time you reach it and then bring your units to frontline they are out of date. Yeah you can upgrade but still you may have lost a window of domination.

13. Mount Kilimanjaro (#208) +2 food to adjacent tiles are not bad, but other volcano can do this when they erupt. Not being Wi-Fi enabled is the biggest con :crazyeye:

.

14. Pantanal (#194) Can help your culture but hurt your production. Good if you have extra population, but the production of your city will be substandard.

15. Hạ Long Bay (#193) Fair enough, it's not better than a rainforest hill amber mine. (I liked it but this argument kinda convinced me.)

16. Fountain of Youth (#184) This is probably the highest a no-food, need to be worked tile can rank. 4 science 4 faith are great but the hidden -2 food is also costly.

17. Great Barrier Reef (#159) I always found that if I settle GBR then I will have a shortage of production. That it has only two tiles and doesn't work as a reef are also bummers.

18. Galápagos Islands (#158) Science are good. Tiles are not that good without resources, Mausoleum or Auckland.

19. Mount Vesuvius (#141) The population loss incurred from settling it is just too heavy, not worth it.

20. Mato Tipila (#131) For me this seems ranked too high, but maybe it's because people completely ignored it.

21. Lysefjord (#124) Nice to have, but in many games naval warfare are kinda irrelevant due to incapability of AI.

22. Chocolate Hills (#120) It's like 4 plain hill geothermal fissure that doesn't provide campus bonus. Meh.

23. Ubsunur Hollow (#112) A tundra natural wonder. The early faith it provide can be sweet. With St. Basil's Cathedral it can be good.

24. Sahara el Beyda (#111) No food means it's costly to work these tiles. With Petra or Desert Folklore it can be good.

25. Uluru (#100) Desert impassable one-tile natural wonder doesn't get people's love.

26. Dead Sea (#88) The tiles are barely workable. But its bonus is good for defense or heal your unit/scout that finds it.

27. Delicate Arch (#78) The smallest real-life wonder to appear in Civilization VI, most of the time only giving 2 faith 1 gold to desert tiles. When it's not next to desert it's kinda sweet, but usually that's not the case.

28. Mount Everest (#77) Always in mountain range, doesn't give many good tiles, only good for religious victory.

29. Bermuda Triangle (#67) Just too far away from land to be useful.

30. Crater Lake (#64) A bit underwhelming, and completely outclassed by Fountain of Youth. If you found it early it can accelerate your pantheon a bit but you have to be very lucky. Provide fresh water but that doesn't mean you should settle your early cities next to it (unlike the more powerful natural wonders).

31. Lake Retba (#63) 2 culture 2 gold and 1 production is as bad as Cliffs of Dover. Sometimes it gives good seaside resort or Holy Site spot but that's about it.

32. Gobustan (#50) 1 production 3 culture = unworkable. It gives some decent holy site spots but so does any natural wonder with more than 1 tiles. But if you are into micromanagement maybe it's not a bad idea to work one or two of the tiles for one or two turns, like Cliffs of Dover.

33. Eye of the Sahara (#26) - No food and being in desert means it's useless unless you can pair it with Petra. The potential Holy Site spots can be good though.

34. Cliffs of Dover (#18) - Hating Cliffs of Dover has become a meme. But haters have their reasons - useless tiles, awkward position, often cannot used for national parks. BTW it gives 3 culture 2 gold instead of 2c3g as some people seem to believe. Still no food after boost. Even 1 food can be good for it, or make it sea based.

hhhhhh · Aug 28, 2020

I will kick start by downvoting Cliffs of Dover

. It doesn't provide food so it's hard to work the tiles. But one thing Cliffs of Dover may allow you to do is to have a tile of 33 appeal (if star aligns) and a seaside resort on that tile can have a 198 tourism! (Exercise: figure out the configuration/setup you need to have to make this happen.)

Upvote goes to a water side natural wonder - Hạ Long Bay. 3 food 1 production will allow you to work them in the beginning of the game, and it also provide you 1 culture. And iirc lighthouse and shipyard boost them too.

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [13]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [16]
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [16]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [16]
Pamukkale [16]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [16]

monikernemo · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [13]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [16]
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13] (16 - 3)
Before every one starts piling on CoD, I think Gobustan is the real 'CoD' post July Patch - Gobustan suffers from the same problem as CoD and is non-improvable.
The only thing Gobustan is good for is making a more than decent national park out of it or building 3 +4 holy sites. Otherwise, a very lackluster wonder on most fronts.
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17] (16 + 1)
I would predict the top few natural wonders would be Roraima, Icelandic volcano and Torres.
Spoilt for the choice in this phase for upvoting.
I have a soft spot for Paititi even if it is spawned in the desert because of how vital culture is in the early game and allows me to skip a few monuments early game.
More importantly, the ability to improve the surrounding yield tiles is key and Paititi fits into that criteria of wonders.
Pamukkale [16]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [16]

bengalryan9 · Aug 28, 2020

This one is going to be tricky, because even with hundreds of hours of play time I still don't think I've been able to make use of all of these. I know it's probably a pain to put together, but a list of the effects of each might be helpful.

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [10] (13-3) This one's awful. You can't even reliably get a national park out of it because in my experience it often spawns on oddly shaped peninsulas.
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [16]
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [16]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [17] (16+1) Starting next to this gives you access to great generals (early great generals are the best great generals!) and great merchants before anyone has even unlocked those districts, and it'll provide nice adjacencies for an early campus or holy site.

enKage · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [10]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13] 16-3 Non existing yields in non habitable terrain. Begone
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [16]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18] 17+1 Devastating wonder if settled early. Basically having it near start position is gamebreaking. Not top3 overall, as it gives no yields, but definitely top3 for first 100 turns

JJOne · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [7](10-3) I always ignore it. At first when that culture matters you can't work them because you lack the food. Later that 2C means practically nothing. Maybe you get some better seaside resort nearby, depending on map luck, but that is it.
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [16]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17] (16+1) If you settle it with 2 cities you get two great campuses or two great TS. You can combine this with good CH, or keep the sides empty for natural parks later.
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

Leucarum · Aug 28, 2020

I love starting near Eyjafjallajökull - the yields you can get reach insane levels very quickly and it can lead to a really unusual game. On the other hand the Cliffs of Dover are a lot of the time just wasted tiles. Permanently disabled for me now that we can do that...

Bermuda Triangle [16]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [4]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [16]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

Edit: Added in votes from above simultaneous post

xaiviax · Aug 28, 2020

Leonard Nimoy, In Search of... Episode 4 vs. 107

Bermuda Triangle [13] (16-3) In search of a reason to care that much about +1 Naval movement.
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [4]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17] (16+1) Fresh water, ridiculous yield, extra appeal, military benefit, all from one little tile, sure.
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

JesseS · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [13]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1] This is still far and away the worst. The 2c/3g tiles that can't be improved are unworkable early because cities need to grow and produce things, and inconsequential late. At least the other ones with bad yields (Eye of Sahara, Gobustan, etc) allow you to stack a few good holy sites next to them or maybe build a national park later. Here, you can maybe build one holy site and the configuration doesn't always allow for a national park. I've also literally had this spawn surrounded by water, so its only use was the era score.
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [16]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [17] Roraima provides 16 science and faith over 11 tiles with the potential for great holy site adjacency (+9 if you can bear to override the best tile). It also only spawns on grassland, so the boosted tiles tend to be workable early.
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

lotrmith · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [10] At least the Cliffs of Dover are accessible.
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [16]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17] Game breaking good at the start. Extra culture, hill combat bonus, and ignore hills promotion.
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [17]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

Amrunril · Aug 28, 2020

I doesn't matter nearly as much here as for world wonders, but I do still think that specifying games against the AI as context is a mistake. I'd much rather keep this open ended so that people can bring more perspectives to the thread and discuss how this sort of context influences things.

Mount Roraima (17+1=18). Other wonders might give better yields to individual tiles, but in terms of total yield bonuses, this one's size puts it far ahead.

Delicate Arch (16-3=13) I don't think there's such a thing as an actively bad natural wonder in the same way that there are actively bad civs and world wonders. An underwhelming natural wonder still gives a Eureka, adjacencies and appeal, and in game, the alternative isn't a better wonder, it's no wonder at all. That said, some wonders definitely are more exciting than others, and this one is definitely towards the meh end of things. It tends to mostly improve desert tiles, and +2faith/+1 gold is rarely enough to make such tiles worthwhile. And unlike many other wonders with unimpressive yields, it only takes up a single tile, so its appeal and adjacency effects are comparatively weaker.

These totals account for the above posts of both JesseS and lotrmith, which were posted simultaneously.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [16]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [18]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [17]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

8housesofelixir · Aug 28, 2020

Roughly speaking, all the natural wonders can be divided into three categories based on yields/effects:
1. Wonder tile yields - wonders that are workable themselves (e.g. Chocolate Hills);
2. Adjacent yields - wonders that are not workable, but will provide yields to adjacent tiles (e.g. all the volcano wonders);
3. Neither of the above - wonders that don't provide yields of any kind, but will give a unique bonus to adjacent tiles/districts/units (e.g. Giant's Causeway).

If viewing wonders in a lens like this, the criteria - my criteria, in this case - for voting them is simple: the "Adjacent yields" type of wonder are better than "Wonder yields" in most of the cases because they will affect more tiles/hexes than the latter, and the wonders that don't provide yields but have unique bonuses is roughly in between. There are a few exceptions - for instance, many of us probably never have a workable Bermuda Triangle in their game till today - but generally speaking that is case.

And based on this criteria, here are the votes:

Pamukkale [17+1=18] Not the best, but probably the most interestingly designed non-yield wonder. It provides fresh water, amenity (which will be more important since this update), and most importantly, a variety of adjacency bonuses - Campus, Theater Square, Commercial Hub, Entertainment Complex (+1 amenity), and the good old Holy Site. Most of the natural wonders can only provide district adjacency to 1 or 2 different districts, Païtiti can provide adjacency to 3; but Pamukkale can give you bonuses to up to 5 different districts. One can basically surrounding the Pamukkale with great districts.

Crater Lake [16-3=13] Probably the worst lake-type natural wonder. Only 1 tile yields, yields are just okay, and the Fountain of Youth can beat it in every single category.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [18]
Mount Roraima [16]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

lotrmith · Aug 28, 2020

Use below totals for next vote. Roraima votes were incorrectly applied to Kilimanjaro.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [13]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [18]

bbbt · Aug 28, 2020

I'm clearly the outlier, but Cliffs of Dover is not my absolute worst Natural Wonder in the game. It has some marginal use if you want to sacrifice growth for some rapid civics movement early game (with it's +3 culture), especially in a second city. I would agree I'd like to see it as say +2 food +3 culture instead of culture and gold.

To me the worst one is:

Eye of the Sahara [10] 13-3. I understand it adds something to already useless tile, but it doesn't make the already useless tile much better, and stops me from potentially building there as well. I won't even usually settle near it unless I'm explicitly doing desert holy sites.

I'm going to upvote:

Zhangye Danxia [19] 18 + 1 - Starting near it especially is a huge advantage, you are basically guaranteed a first general and merchant. And you don't even have to work it, literally just have a tile in your city.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [10]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [16]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [19]

TCBB · Aug 28, 2020

Eye of the Sahara: Completely agree, it’s even worse than Cliffs of Dover; at least Cliffs grants *some* sort of yields in a population high city when you can afford to dedicate one or two workers to the culture. EotS is utterly, utterly useless – all the more so because desert cities are going to be low population.

Giant’s Causeway: One of those ‘game-changer’ wonders early on. If you spawn next to this, you know you’re safe from invasion - or you know that you can take the fight to whoever you want and initiate a domination snowball.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Cliffs of Dover [1]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [7] (10-3)
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [17] (16+1)
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [19]

Noble Zarkon · Aug 28, 2020

Amrunril said:
I do still think that specifying games against the AI as context is a mistake.

Totally disagree - multiplayer is such a different game it would just distort the debate.

Amrunril said:
the alternative isn't a better wonder, it's no wonder at all

That's not correct - you have a set number of Natural Wonders in the game so if you get 6 duds you get 6 duds.

Eye of the Sahara [8] - not the best but surprised to see it downvoted so early, it's shape means you can get a nice cluster of Holy Sites round it, with Desert Folklore as I had recently it's awesome! The desert was a small patch in that game so food wasn't a problem.

Cliffs of Dover [Eliminated] - the worst by a mile, just make them farmable and it's a drastic improvement.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [16]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [8]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [17]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [16]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [19]

Deadly Dog · Aug 28, 2020

Mount Everest [13] 16-3 Too often locked behind more mountains, which is realistic but makes me very unexcited to see it. For a 3-tile wonder, I find I get maybe one or two tiles next to it worth working or building a HS, and little else. Hills movement for religious units too niche for this to be a "wonder" level boost except on a rare confluence of low probability RNG's

Chocolate hills [17] 16+1 Meets many of my criteria for a wonder to settle near ASAP. First, a workable tile yield with at least 1 food to make it semi-sustainable (literally). Second, production (this time x2) which rocks. Third, a "secondary" yield, this time science. Fourth, its 4 tile so lots of potential with parks/HS. Finally, its "passable", meaning you lose zero tiles in your city radius for having it. Not the best, but definutely above the median.

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [17]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [8]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [17]
Gobustan [13]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [13]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [17]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [19]

CrabHelmet · Aug 28, 2020

Bermuda Triangle [10]
Chocolate Hills [17]
Crater Lake [13]
Dead Sea [16]
Delicate Arch [13]
Eye of the Sahara [8]
Eyjafjallajökull [17]
Fountain of Youth [17]
Galápagos Islands [16]
Giant's Causeway [17]
Gobustan [10]
Great Barrier Reef [16]
Hạ Long Bay [17]
Ik-Kil [16]
Lake Retba [16]
Lysefjord [16]
Mato Tipila [16]
Matterhorn [17]
Mount Everest [13]
Mount Kilimanjaro [16]
Mount Roraima [18]
Mount Vesuvius [16]
Païtiti [18]
Pamukkale [18]
Pantanal [16]
Piopiotahi [16]
Sahara el Beyda [16]
Torres del Paine [16]
Tsingy de Bemaraha [16]
Ubsunur Hollow [16]
Uluru [16]
Yosemite [16]
Zhangye Danxia [19]

Very unclear why Cliffs of Dover went before Gobustan - 3 Culture 2 Gold vs 3 Culture 1 Production is basically even, but Gobustan is 3 tiles and therefore is 1 more utterly pointless tile than Cliffs of Dover is.

Paititi is great - tonnes of extra Gold and Culture. Find it early and you've won the game.

I don't really have very strong opinions on most Natural Wonders. They're... things that happen in games, I guess? Because they're random I rarely plan for them, so mentally I guess I class them into "oh wow, I should settle towards that" and "I can't be bothered". Maybe you could further split that into "oh, I started next to X, I've already won", and "oh, I've started next to X, that's good". There's not many of that first category, though. Zhagney Danxia, Piopiotahi, Pamukkale, Paititi, Mount Roirama, and maaaaaybe Ha Long Bay, Giant's Causeway and Eyjakafoladaslaosfalsfgkgulalafeeflfulllasadsdl. The rest I really struggle to care.

Natural Wonder Elimination Thread

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