1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Natural Wonder Tier List

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by klaskeren, Dec 25, 2014.

  1. klaskeren

    klaskeren Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Denmark
    Making a tier list of natural wonders since there has been some discussion about this lately, and a suggestion from a forum member.
    since we can all agree that the rating of natural wonders depends on what type of game you are playing. e.g.: More production is better when rushing, etc. This list will try to rank each wonder by the average usefulness of a players game, keeping in mind that the most normal games last past turn 200 and are played at immortal om pangaea for example.

    1. Fountain of Youth :c5happy: 10

    10 Happiness just for having this in your borders, this alone mean you can settle an extra 2 cities early on which is very powerful, the double healing is useful for domination games

    2. Eldorado :c5culture: 5

    500 gold means an extra free settler which is a big deal, the tile itself is okay but one strong part about this wonder is that you dont really need to settle it, you just reap the 500g for finding it.

    3. Great Barrier Reef (x2) 2:)c5food:2 :c5production:1 :c5gold:1 :c5science:2)
    Getting one with nature with this means the highest combined stats of any NW, you dont give up any food or production to get extra faith, science, and gold, strong.

    4. Sri Pada :c5happy:2 :c5faith:4 :c5food:2

    The best of the faith wonders. all of which are strong, since early religion is so key to have. Gives enough faith that you can found a religion guaranteed with it alone, food early on so you can work it and still grow, and 2 happiness really helps early on.

    5. Uluru :c5faith:6 :c5food:2

    Only NW apart from sri para that gives both food and faith, making it easily workable early on. Getting free faith early on gives a high chance of getting one with nature, a good feature of all the faith NW and that makes them very strong. Though sri para trades 2 of that faith for happiness, which is a good trade considering that the 10 happiness wonder is at top, so a flat trade of faith for happiness seems in favor for the happiness

    6. Mt. Kaliash :c5faith:6 :c5happy:2

    Good Faith wonder. Faith and Happiness is great, if you can send this city a food caravan early, this wonder becomes better than Uluru and possibly sri para.

    7. Mt. Sinai :c5faith:8

    2nd worst of the faith wonders, the pure 8 faith is just over the top, and does not compete with the trade off of a little extra food and or happiness of those faith wonders above.

    8. Mt. Kilimanjaro :c5food:3 :c5culture:2

    This wonder gives a little food to be very workable, and pretty decent culture which can be nice especially in domination games, where the flat culture bonus is a lot. The real bonus of this wonder comes from the buff it yields, which allows units double movement in hills. Great for domination games, not required to settle it but its often a good idea to have at least a road from cap to this. Ranking it 8th because its not very good in peaceful games.

    9. King solomons mines :c5production: 6

    The production is nice, and the reason i put this higher than Lake Victoria is that you can get big amounts of production from this with just a little population and this does not require a city placement with good production tiles, and big worker commitment early on in order to get things rolling fast, for example its great to work this tile from pop 1 and hard build a granary, while with Lake Victoria, you have to grow, wait for workers to come and improve hills nearby (if there are any) and you can't really build anything until all that is done. King solomons mines is better in more city spots, since it does not require additional production tiles for a city in that location to be useful

    10. Mt. Fuji :c5gold:2 :c5culture:3 :c5faith:3

    The worst of the faith wonders. This wonder gives a bit of gold which is the weakest yield in most situations, and culture which is okay but happiness faith and food is probably better. Its one saving grace is that it does give 3 faith which does allow you to settle it early and pick up one with nature for a nice 7 faith tile with some culture.

    11. Lake Victoria :c5food:6

    Okay wonder, very situational though, if this wonder is just surrounded by flatland it is questionable if this is even worth a settle, since every city preferably needs some production. With hills or horse tiles or such this becomes pretty good, but still requires a lot of workers early on if you want to make use of that extra population, which means that you need quite a few worker steal in order to make this good. and even in the best of cases i would still rather have KSM since its less invested resources early on and you can use the hammers faster.

    12. Old Faithful :c5science:2 :c5happy:3

    3 happiness for having this in your borders is okay, never work this tile though unless you have no other source of religion and can take one with nature.

    13. Krakatoa :c5science:5

    Useful if a city has a lot of early food and or if you want to rush your science to get a specific wonder like petra or CI, working the extra science otherwise is questionable before pop 3 otherwise, with caravans this can become nice though. One downside of this wonder is that it is often very unworkable and you often have to go out of your way and buy tiles to even work it.

    14. Rock of Gibraltar :c5food:2 :c5gold:5

    Food and a decent amount of gold makes this an okay tile to work, dont go out of your way to settle this though as the gold is not extremely useful.

    15. Cerro de Potosi :c5gold:10

    10 gold straight up is very situational. Its good to work in the middle game, or very early if you want to buy something like a city state or a settler even, this becomes higher ranked in domination games where you can go broke easier

    16. Barringer Crater :c5gold:2 :c5science:3

    Bad wonder. only work this pretty late, or when you absolutely need a tech a few turns faster, not worth it otherwise.

    17. Grand Mesa 2 production 3 gold

    Bad, without one with nature this is definitely worse than any resource tile, and probably worse than a straight up hill which can be improved with a mine.



    Discuss :)
     
  2. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,494
    OK, let's go. I mostly play Immortal and Deity (i can often win if i don't tire before but i won't score some T240 Deity wins like better players :p) so this does influence my view of NW.
    Notre Dame right from the start without having to build it, yeah very strong.
    This one is good if and only if you have it very close to your starting position, something very unlikely to happen. Otherwise on higher difficulties chances are high the AI will see it first with all their starting units to explore and you won't get your 500 gold. I really wouldn't rank it that high if you are considering average usefulness on high difficulties.
    If you can take one with nature and you want religion it's great. Otherwise it's a nice early science boost. It does require 2 populations thought. Top tier for sure, not sure for spot 3
    The worst of the faith NW for me ;) 4:c5faith: is hardly enough to guarantee a religion with it alone. If you get one it will be a late one and you might end up with crappy beliefs (or not, depending on AI choices) and it will be hard to secure it even in your own cities, let alone spread it outside. I would rather have a stronger faith early to actually guarantee my religion than those 2 happiness.
    I would rate this one best of the faith NW. Nice yield and won't stop your growth.
    Yep, good not great.
    I would rate Sinai higher for direct and indirect reasons. Directly it's 8 :c5faith:! 8 is a lot! Now you can rely on this one alone for your religion, even without one with nature. Then it will spawn on Desert so if you can grab it fast, you work it 2 turns (no growth) then get Desert Folklore, stop working it to grow while still producing :c5faith: with your Pantheon, and after you have your granary you can work it again and get a strong religion. You might not get the first religion but it will be a strong one.

    Note that for all the faith NW i don't automatically consider One with Nature because unless you have Great Reef, it's only 4 :c5faith: and you can often get more from another Pantheon. Not immediately more, but in the long run. In the long run you will need all the :c5faith: you can get if you want to fight the religious war against the AIs endless tides of Great Prophets.
    Nice analysis. I probably would rank it even higher than you. Definitely above some of the faith NW because :c5production: will always help you directly.
    I don't even consider this one a faith NW. It will help you slightly in various aspects of the game but if you go OwN and rely on it for faith, you'll get a very weak religion if you get one at all. On the other hand, some early culture and a low cost opportunity at religion is not something to ignore so Fuji is useful to have around.
    I would rate this one higher too. It's not that situational for me. It's unlikely you'll get only flatlands with no production resources and no forests. A production poor city can still be good if you can grow to use lots of specialists (put all your guilds there for culture).

    Now i would put this one as the absolute worst NW since it gives you nothing. You have to actually work a NW to get some yield and this one has an annoying tendency to end up in the ocean 5 tiles away from the closest shore :wallbash:

    All the others are rather lackluster with Grand Mesa being the worst of the workable wonders for me too.
     
  3. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    I would put Eldorado top, since it allows some insane starts if you spawn close enough to it, whereas FoY is more of a long-term thing. If you find Eldorado before T10, then effectively you're playing on Immortal again.
     
  4. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    So the criteria is something like:

    Immortal/Deity
    Pangaea
    200+ turns

    So, is the wonder close by? Able to be settled by your first or second city? Not in range of the capitol? And you are not Spain?
     
  5. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Grand Cayman/San Diego
    Good list and a decent starting point.

    If the idea is to rank the NW's according to how they do in "most" situations, as opposed to "some" situations, then I'd make the following changesL

    #2 El Dorado: Move down. It's basically a free settler once out of every 8 games. It's actually less than that due to the AI having more units at t0. If you don't discover it first, it's nothing more than +5 culture. Useful, yes, but only 5 total points would put it down around #12 on this list. I'd even question it being at #2 if you do discover it first.

    #5 Uluru: Move up 1 spot. I would consider it the #1 faith NW. The extra 2 faith it has over Sri Pada is very valuable early game, as you are rushing towards your pantheon, 1st religion, and most importantly, it can get you your 2nd and 3rd GP's many turns sooner, when it matters most in the faith spread game. Also, over the course of a full game, you are adding an additional 500+ faith. That can be used for a planted GP and or the extra GE, GS, or CWAM that puts you over the top. The happiness from Sri Pada, while nice, doesn't outweigh the extra early faith. I rarely find myself below +2 happiness, so all you are really getting is a bit earlier expansion and/or quicker Golden Ages.

    #11 Lake Victoria. Move way up. Again, in "most" games, you are going to get at least a few tiles with hammers in your radius. This means it is almost always going to be extremely useful both early game for ridiculous growth/production, but also mid-late game where you can work all of your specialist tiles. I put it ahead of KSM because I find it useful earlier and later, when games are won. +6 production starts to lose its value later in the game.

    The OP argument against LV assumes that there won't be production tiles nearby. Since you can sort of choose which side of LV to settle on, this situation is somewhat avoidable. Also, if I'm not mistaken, LV also counts as a lake for purposes of tile improvements and Garden building. KSM does not have this advantage.

    Population trumps production if one cares about science, and science is needed for almost all VC's.

    I'd put LV at #3 or 4.

    #8 Mt. Kilamanjaro: Move up ahead of Mt. Kalaish. 1st of all, 3 food from the beginning is very nice. This ensures a fast growing city right when you settle it with no worker needed. Secondly, the +2 culture (aka free extra Monument) is very powerful early game when rushing through SP's is soooo important. Yes, you probably won't even be working this tile later in the game, but the double movement in hills makes for a very powerful tool when warring, both offensively and defensively, and this never goes away. This bonus applies in every game.

    #14 Rock of Gibraltar: Move to the top of the "garbage" NW's. You'll work this tile pretty much the entire game, unlike the others that belong below it. +5 gold is nice and gets better with multipliers. The early gold can be just what you need to buy a t50 settler.
     
  6. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,453
    Location:
    4 Hexes from FoY
    A NW list would probably depend on what civ you are playing. I can think of 2 atm and that's Spain and the Inca, with the Inca wanting Mt Kilimanjaro.

    As Spain:
    GBR, LV, Krakatoa, King Solomon mines, any NW that gives food. Krakatoa and King Solomon mines are in no particular order as both NW require a cargo ship shipped from the capital to the city that has the NW. The only difference is the KSM city will produce the cargo ship.
    As Inca:
    GBR, LV, King Solomon mines, Mt Kilimanjaro, any NW that gives food
    Anyone else:
    GBR, LV, King Solomon mines, any NW that gives food. The 5 science from Krakatoa isn't enough to justify delaying your NC for at least ~14 turns whilst you build a cargo ship in your capital to supplement a Krakatoa city.
     
  7. AnonymousSpeed

    AnonymousSpeed Pink Plastic Army Man

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    As others have said, I'd more Ulura up one or two, it's pretty great for the faith and food, and I don't find the happiness of Sri Pada is that needed. It's only two, which is the equivalent of a circus and unless you're having happiness problems the extra faith matters more than the golden age points.

    I'd move El Dorado down quite a bit: Five culture is actually pretty good but not that good and normally you will only get 100 gold for finding it on higher difficulties. Better with Spain (more so than normal), since finding it first is 1000 gold, but the same can be gained with Great Barrier Reef, which provides food, science and production, as well as 8 faith with One With Nature.

    I'd also put Mount Sinai above Mount Kalaish, since I value that faith over happiness, but both are inferior to Sri Pada and Ulura.

    I'm not sure if I'd put Fountain of Youth at number one, to be honest. Maybe I don't value happiness enough, and I agree that 10 is good, but I'm not sure it outweighs the benefits of Ulura, the Great Barrier Reef, or Lake Victoria.

    SPEAKING OF! Lake Victoria is a free Hanging Gardens. Top tier.

    I've never actually gotten King Solomon's Mines, so I can't speak for it.

    On the note of Krakatowa, I do have to ask: Is it good in a place were you can work it? I know it's rare to be able to work it with a decent city spot, but it can be 5 beakers early. I'd still not put it high, since it's so tough to use, but I need to wonder how good it can be normally.
     
  8. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,453
    Location:
    4 Hexes from FoY
    Terrain
    Depending on the surrounding terrain some NW will move up, or down the list imo. Normally Mt Sinai is surrounded by flat desert, KSM is surrounded by grassland, and LV the same. In my recent game I got KSM that was surrounded by riverside grassland and hills, needless to say in this case KSM was an exceptional NW. I remember a game where Mt Sinai was 3 tiles from the coast with hills and grassland in between with the desert in rings 4 and beyond.
     
  9. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    This Spanish map has 4 wheat & El Dorado (south) on it and also Kilimanjaro (east). 1500 gold. Tradition finished on T55. Very nice, almost perfect. By about 120 the Eldorado effect had been neutralized.

    And on this map, you can probably win any way you want in 200 turns. Even though its Spain, and I had an extra 1000 gold, I think that's a strong case for El Dorado assuming you find it first. I'd like to try a non-Spain El Dorado.

    I kinda think the Faith Wonders are less important overall simply because there are more of them and the AI will always make Faith to match yours. So, you aren't getting ahead, you are just keeping up with the pack that's playing the religious track.

    Another point is that the science NWs compensate you for the 5% hit to research for making another city. So your science rate keeps up with out a temporary dip.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. AnonymousSpeed

    AnonymousSpeed Pink Plastic Army Man

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    Sheesh, so many Spain maps to play...

    I was actually going to mention something like that. Does anyone know the 'start bias' of natural wonders?
     
  11. joe_the_dead

    joe_the_dead Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Western Lands
    Starting Bias for them all should look something like > next to a City-state. ;)

    No, i don't know . . . Lake Victoria i saw in Grasslands, Tundra and really everything. Lately i had eldorado in two of my games and it was both times in deep jungle.
     
  12. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Grand Cayman/San Diego
    I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that half of GBR has an ocean bias. Not sure about the other half.
     
  13. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,494
    I've never found Sinai out of desert so there is some bias but it's probably hard coded as i just had a look at the Features table and didn't found anything. I guess it's buried somewhere in the ~10.000 lines of codes of AssignStartingPlots.lua :dunno:

    What i do know is that there is some check to prevent starting position of any major civ to be too close. I think the script first places major civs, than NW with a minimum distance, then CS (that's why they are more often close to NW then majors).

    El Dorado is really hard to evaluate. It's very strong for whoever find it first, but unless you are very lucky it's unlikely to be you on higher difficulties :badcomp:

    LOL : it's indeed in AssignStartingPlots Not that hard to find with a text search. Here is the bias for the "geyser" (probably old faithful).

    EDIT : Sorry this was pre G&K. They moved it to the database where it now has a dedicated table (it wasn't in the features table that defines the NW effect).

    So here is your start bias
    Spoiler :
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9 Column 10 Column 11 Column 12 Column 13 Column 14 Column 15 Column 16 Column 17 Column 18 Column 19 Column 20 Column 21 Column 22 Column 23 Column 24 Column 25 Column 26 Column 27 Column 28 Column 29 Column 30 Column 31 Column 32 Column 33 Column 34 Column 35 Column 36 Column 37 Column 38 Column 39 Column 40 Column 41 Column 42 Column 43 Column 44 Column 45 Column 46 Column 47 Column 48 Column 49 Column 50 Column 51 Column 52 Column 53 Column 54 Column 55 Column 56 Column 57 Column 58 Column 59 Column 60 Column 61 Column 62 Column 63 Column 64 Column 65 Column 66 Column 67 Column 68 Column 69 Column 70 Column 71 Column 72 Column 73 Column 74 Column 75 Column 76 Column 77 Column 78 Column 79 Column 80 Column 81 Column 82 Column 83 Column 84 Column 85 Column 86 Column 87 Column 88 Column 89 Column 90 Column 91 Column 92 Column 93 Column 94 Column 95 Column 96 Column 97 Column 98 Column 99 Column 100 Column 101 Column 102 Column 103 Column 104 Column 105 Column 106 Column 107 Column 108 Column 109 Column 110 Column 111 Column 112 Column 113 Column 114 Column 115 Column 116 Column 117 Column 118 Column 119 Column 120 Column 121 Column 122 Column 123 Column 124 Column 125 Column 126 Column 127
    ID NaturalWonderType EligibilityMethodNumber OccurrenceFrequency RequireBiggestLandmass AvoidBiggestLandmass RequireFreshWater AvoidFreshWater LandBased RequireLandAdjacentToOcean AvoidLandAdjacentToOcean RequireLandOnePlotInland AvoidLandOnePlotInland RequireLandTwoOrMorePlotsInland AvoidLandTwoOrMorePlotsInland CoreTileCanBeAnyPlotType CoreTileCanBeFlatland CoreTileCanBeHills CoreTileCanBeMountain CoreTileCanBeOcean CoreTileCanBeAnyTerrainType CoreTileCanBeGrass CoreTileCanBePlains CoreTileCanBeDesert CoreTileCanBeTundra CoreTileCanBeSnow CoreTileCanBeShallowWater CoreTileCanBeDeepWater CoreTileCanBeAnyFeatureType CoreTileCanBeNoFeature CoreTileCanBeForest CoreTileCanBeJungle CoreTileCanBeOasis CoreTileCanBeFloodPlains CoreTileCanBeMarsh CoreTileCanBeIce CoreTileCanBeAtoll AdjacentTilesCareAboutPlotTypes AdjacentTilesAvoidAnyland AdjacentTilesRequireFlatland RequiredNumberOfAdjacentFlatland AdjacentTilesRequireHills RequiredNumberOfAdjacentHills AdjacentTilesRequireMountain RequiredNumberOfAdjacentMountain AdjacentTilesRequireHillsPlusMountains RequiredNumberOfAdjacentHillsPlusMountains AdjacentTilesRequireOcean RequiredNumberOfAdjacentOcean AdjacentTilesAvoidFlatland MaximumAllowedAdjacentFlatland AdjacentTilesAvoidHills MaximumAllowedAdjacentHills AdjacentTilesAvoidMountain MaximumAllowedAdjacentMountain AdjacentTilesAvoidHillsPlusMountains MaximumAllowedAdjacentHillsPlusMountains AdjacentTilesAvoidOcean MaximumAllowedAdjacentOcean AdjacentTilesCareAboutTerrainTypes AdjacentTilesRequireGrass RequiredNumberOfAdjacentGrass AdjacentTilesRequirePlains RequiredNumberOfAdjacentPlains AdjacentTilesRequireDesert RequiredNumberOfAdjacentDesert AdjacentTilesRequireTundra RequiredNumberOfAdjacentTundra AdjacentTilesRequireSnow RequiredNumberOfAdjacentSnow AdjacentTilesRequireShallowWater RequiredNumberOfAdjacentShallowWater AdjacentTilesRequireDeepWater RequiredNumberOfAdjacentDeepWater AdjacentTilesAvoidGrass MaximumAllowedAdjacentGrass AdjacentTilesAvoidPlains MaximumAllowedAdjacentPlains AdjacentTilesAvoidDesert MaximumAllowedAdjacentDesert AdjacentTilesAvoidTundra MaximumAllowedAdjacentTundra AdjacentTilesAvoidSnow MaximumAllowedAdjacentSnow AdjacentTilesAvoidShallowWater MaximumAllowedAdjacentShallowWater AdjacentTilesAvoidDeepWater MaximumAllowedAdjacentDeepWater AdjacentTilesCareAboutFeatureTypes AdjacentTilesRequireNoFeature RequiredNumberOfAdjacentNoFeature AdjacentTilesRequireForest RequiredNumberOfAdjacentForest AdjacentTilesRequireJungle RequiredNumberOfAdjacentJungle AdjacentTilesRequireOasis RequiredNumberOfAdjacentOasis AdjacentTilesRequireFloodPlains RequiredNumberOfAdjacentFloodPlains AdjacentTilesRequireMarsh RequiredNumberOfAdjacentMarsh AdjacentTilesRequireIce RequiredNumberOfAdjacentIce AdjacentTilesRequireAtoll RequiredNumberOfAdjacentAtoll AdjacentTilesAvoidNoFeature MaximumAllowedAdjacentNoFeature AdjacentTilesAvoidForest MaximumAllowedAdjacentForest AdjacentTilesAvoidJungle MaximumAllowedAdjacentJungle AdjacentTilesAvoidOasis MaximumAllowedAdjacentOasis AdjacentTilesAvoidFloodPlains MaximumAllowedAdjacentFloodPlains AdjacentTilesAvoidMarsh MaximumAllowedAdjacentMarsh AdjacentTilesAvoidIce MaximumAllowedAdjacentIce AdjacentTilesAvoidAtoll MaximumAllowedAdjacentAtoll TileChangesMethodNumber ChangeCoreTileToMountain ChangeCoreTileToFlatland ChangeCoreTileTerrainToGrass ChangeCoreTileTerrainToPlains SetAdjacentTilesToShallowWater
    0 FEATURE_CRATER -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 2 1 4 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    1 FEATURE_FUJI -1 10 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 1 2 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 1 0 0
    2 FEATURE_MESA -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 2 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    3 FEATURE_REEF 1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0
    4 FEATURE_VOLCANO -1 10 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 1 0 1
    5 FEATURE_GIBRALTAR 2 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 2 0 0 0 0 0
    6 FEATURE_GEYSER -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 4 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 3 1 3 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    7 FEATURE_FOUNTAIN_YOUTH -1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 0 1 0 1 0
    8 FEATURE_POTOSI -1 5 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    9 FEATURE_EL_DORADO -1 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 0 1 0 1 0
    14 FEATURE_SRI_PADA -1 10 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    15 FEATURE_MT_SINAI -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    16 FEATURE_MT_KAILASH -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 4 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 1 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    17 FEATURE_ULURU -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    18 FEATURE_LAKE_VICTORIA -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 0 1 0 1 0
    19 FEATURE_KILIMANJARO -1 10 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 2 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 1 0 0 0 0
    20 FEATURE_SOLOMONS_MINES -1 4 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 1 2 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 0 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 0 99 1 0 0 99 -1 0 1 0 1 0


    Glad you asked? :goodjob:
     
  14. klaskeren

    klaskeren Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Denmark
    For the people wondering about stuff like eldorado and how close i assume the wonders are, i assume you are first to find them and that you can settle it for your second city.

    Otherwise it doesnt make much sense since the argument that eldorado is only useful if its close to you applies to the other wonders aswell. Sri pada wont do you any good if its 50 tiles away from your cap.
     
  15. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,494
    No, but Sri Pada can be 8 tiles away so you can settle your second city close by (or even your first if you are the wandering settler type) while even an 8 tiles away El Dorado have a high chance of being seen by the AI first on Deity.
     
  16. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Grand Cayman/San Diego
    Great find Bob. My only problem with the table is that it lists GBR as "land-based".
     
  17. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Grand Cayman/San Diego
    Because El Dorado is only powerful IF you find it first, it is more situational than any other NW. Because of that, it probably should be ranked twice. Very high if you find it first, down with the garbage if you don't. Sort of like with the Civ tier rankings, it deserves an asterisk.

    So how high should it be if you find it first? It's close to a game-changer for the free early settler, but the +5 culture just isn't that powerful once you get into the mid-game. Don't get me wrong…..I don't underestimate the power of a second city founded very early (although happiness can be an issue), but according to Bob's cool little table, El Dorado gets a jungle bias…….so it's not guaranteed to be a great city.

    In comparison, LV or KSM will allow you to pump out at least a couple of extra settlers, albeit a bit later than El Dorado does.
     
  18. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    Could someone post a non-Spain El Dorado that's in range of city two? I know they are hard to find, but if we all start looking...

    Here is an interesting question, if you wanted to find El Dorado which civ would you pick to look with?

    Because that has an effect on the value of El Dorado. Some civs are more likely to have it than others and that group of civs has a certain set of UA/UB to synergize with the wonder.

    Take a look at this GBR location. Compare to a second city from El Dorado.

    Spoiler :
     
  19. sun8119

    sun8119 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    252
    If only there was a mountain near the capital :) But sure starting with 1500 gold is nice and getting double benefits from NWs.
     
  20. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,453
    Location:
    4 Hexes from FoY
    Yeah according to World-builder GBR can only be placed on ocean or coast tiles that aren't adjacent to land, and it is the only NW that can be placed on water(even Krakatoa is on land).
     

Share This Page