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[GS] Naturalists v Rockbands

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Potato McWhiskey has a video discussing how Culture Victories work on comparing Naturalists v Rock Bands (here).

    Couple of questions for the Brain Trust, particularly @Victoria .

    First, PMW discusses Domestic Tourists (which are based on a Civs total culture including Inspirations), Foreign Tourists (Domestic Tourists travelling to other Civs) and Visiting Tourists (other Civs Tourists Visiting your Civ). The way PMW describes CV, to win you need to have more Visiting Tourists (which your basically earn through Tourism, ie x Tourism attracts y Visiting Tourists) than other Civs have Domestic Tourists. The but I’m not sure about is this: PMW says when you acquire Visiting Tourists you do so by reducing (ie stealing) other Civs Domestic Tourists, ie getting more Visiting Tourists reduces other Civs Domestic Tourists. Is this right? I knew your Visiting Tourists had to exceed everyone else’s Domestic Tourists, but I didn’t realise your Tourism actually reduced other Civ’s Domestic Tourists.

    Second, PMW says that National Parks earn Visiting Tourists (ie steal Domestic Tourists) from every Civ you’ve meet, whereas Rock Bands only steal Domestic Tourists from one specific Civ (igniting promotions). So, eg, a National Park earnings say 1 Visiting Tourist per 10 turns will steal 1 Visiting Tourist from every Civ you have met every 10 turns (so, if there were 7 other Civs, you’d earn 7 Visiting Tourists each 10 turns). A Rock Band might steal eg 10 Visiting Tourists when used, but they all come from one Civ. So, you might earn the same or even more Visiting Tourists than using a National Park, but you only reduce the Domestic Tourists of one Civ instead of all the Civs.

    Third, as a corollary of point two, basically National Parks are better earlier in the game when they have more turns over which they can passively earn Visiting Tourists, whereas Rock Bands are better at the end of the game to reduce the Domestic Tourists of the next biggest Civ and out your Visiting Tourists total over the top. Is that right?
     
  2. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    Yes but... I've played for 1500 hours on CIV 6, and the number of games where I've had more than 2 or 3 possible locations for National Parks is dismal ! Most often, more than 1 is complicated...

    IMHO, counting on NP for culture victory is VERY situational
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    In my experience rock bands are almost always better than naturalists.

    Remember that you can use the national park tile to build ski resorts or moai or alcanzar and they also generate tourism, so naturalist do not make a lot of extra tourism.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Okay, thanks.

    But just so I’m clear, does earning Visiting Tourists actually reduce another Civ’s Domestic Tourists?
     
  5. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Yes.
     
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  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    These 2 points come back to same thing which has been discussed before and I have placed at the end of the Rock band guide. Whether it be ski slopes or virginal forest, if you are not close to a victory and only using a rock band or 2 then the tourism will be better. Targeting the winning civ makes Rock bands very strong. You can win just with 10 bands having not made any tourism before that but you have to be early.

    NP’s are normally a pain but can be quite good with a big chain of mountains.
     
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  7. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

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    There is a policy card which prevents your rockbands from entering AI's territory. On Immortal and Deity, the AI's love to use it. "So and so has banned rock music"... and now the only option is to declare war?
     
  8. Isengardtom

    Isengardtom Warlord

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    I think national parks are strong if you have appeal improvements such as a chateau or Sphinx
    Then you can easily build several parks
     
  9. Mahasona

    Mahasona Prince

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    They use it on Emperor too but usually switch it back out after a few turns.

    Declaring war would mean losing the +25% trade route so maybe better waiting it out?
     
  10. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Thanks @Lily_Lancer and @Victoria . Very helpful. I thought I had a good handle on CV, but somehow hadn’t really appreciated there was actual stealing of Domestic Tourists involved to gain Foreign (Visiting) Tourists. Or if I did know, perhaps I had forgotten. Much clearer now either way.
     
  11. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    You can steal more domestic tourists than a civ actually has, which makes rock bands the best choice.
     
  12. qadams

    qadams Bohemian

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    As an optimal winning strategy, rock bands might be somewhat better, but I truly do enjoy the satisfaction of providing my citizens with a lovely national park. Or several!
     
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  13. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    Sometimes you just win before rock bands come online and conservation is an easily-beelined civic (as opposed to cold war which is much later in the civics tree). The era points are useful if needed (it's +3 era score every park you form whereas you only get era score for your first rock band).

    If only they lowered the cost of naturalists to that of a rock band then parks would be clearly better.

    Parks (as with any non-rock band based tourism) do get worse if the game starts losing civs to conquest though. If you are only left with 2 other civs on an 8-player map for example, passive tourism takes very long to get tourists.
     
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  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    He understands well in this video. Has forgotten about speed counting which is quite key but as he said he still has to do a full culture victory video.
    they have right? Naturalist now cost 600?... Rock bands are in the wiki at 500 but am pretty sure they are now 600

    I think what I hate most about rock bands in they are how you win a CV if you have killed all civs but one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Rock bands costs 600+100*number you have purchased
    Naturalist costs 1200+200*number you have purchased
     
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  16. Dotsworthy

    Dotsworthy Chieftain

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    Declaring war does not negate the policy card. Tried this in my last game to no avail.
     
  17. Karmah

    Karmah King Supporter

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    Yes. That's the only thing Np would have over rock bands, the latest have a hard counter. Now how strong is that counter, while optimum in theory, the defending civ still needs to have the right civics and slot it. The latest being non trivial for the AI in my experience.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    aaah thanks... I remember seeing this in the April 2019 patch but did not realise it was base. I never get to use em personally apart from as Canada but they are weird Naturalists.
    "Reduce base cost of Naturalists from 800 to 600 to make them compete better with Rock Bands"
     
  19. Hogimus

    Hogimus Chieftain

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    That’s funny, when I do Canada play throughs, I regularly can find spots to build more than 20 NPs. They do have the IHR to help with appeal and tundra bias to provide land, but a lot of culture civs have similar appeal boosting improvements. Building NPs just takes planning, or builders planting forests.
     
  20. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    Wow... 20 ? well, Ive only played Canada once, so... I suppose the tundra bias helps... and also they increased the amount of mountains I think in a recent patch, so...

    Still... 20 ? That's a lot
     

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