Nature conservation beyond natural park

[circeus]

Natural parks feel like a reductive treatment of nature conservation, especially since in real life marshes and rainforests are far more likely to hold conservation interest than random forests or mountains.

New resources: fossils and rare species

• Fossils are a special resource found only on land tiles, and revealed by Natural History. They are more likely to be found on hills and tiles adjacent to rivers or coast.
  
• Rare Species are revealed at Conservation (or through Charles Darwin special ability), and can be found on any tile, including coast or lake tiles. They are more likely to be found on or adjacent to tiles with oases, marshes or rainforests.
• There are six types of species and fossils: plants, mammals, fish, birds, insects and herpetiles, with varying likelihood of appearing on any given terrain or feature.
  • I'd like to work in mineral specimens, but I am not sure how.
• Fossil can be extracted by archeologist, and species can be collected by naturalist, generating a Rare Specimen.
  
• Rare Species on land yield +1 science within the territory of a Zoo, and one or sea or lake yield +1 science within the territory of an Aquarium. Fossils do not give any yield.
  
• Rare Species and Fossils are destroyed by volcanic eruptions just like other harvestable resources. In fact, all types of disasters may destroy Rare Species.
• Actively building anything the tiles one will remove the species or fossil. This does not count automatic roads such as those created by traders or Rome's special ability.
• Harvesting anything (for species) or quarriable resources (for fossils) will also remove them.
• Destroying a rare species may cause grievances from environmentalist leaders. Destroying a fossil will cause grievances from scientific leaders.
• Some rare species and fossils remain hidden! They will be revealed if are withing the line of sight of an archeologist or naturalist.

New building/improvements: Natural history museums, research stations and Nature reserves

Natural history museums

• Natural History Museums are a thirds type of museum, available at Natural history. They can hold fossils and rare specimens.
• Rare specimens are created by Naturalists and will remove the rare species from the tile.
• A natural history museum is themed by putting three fossils or three rare specimens of different types in it.
  
• Fossils can be held in archeological museums just like artifacts, but fossils cannot be used to theme an archeological museum
• Naturalists now have charges! A naturalist created in a city with a Natural History Museum has 3 charge, otherwise only 1.
• It takes 2 charges to establish a national park.

Research stations and Nature Reserves

• Research stations and Nature Reserves are national park-like improvement. They can be damage and even destroyed by disasters, but not removed by any player action.
• Naturalists can use 1 charge to build 1-tile Nature Preserves and Research Station improvements (including on coast tiles). Doing so expends the Naturalist.
• Mounties can establish Nature Reserves, but not build Research Stations.
• Research Stations generate +1 tourism and +2 science. They can only be built on tiles with Rare Species or a resource. Doing so removes the Rare Species, but generates a Rare Specimen if an appropriate great work slot is available.
• Nature Reserves generate +1 tourism, +2 culture and +1 amenity to their city. They can be built only on tiles with Rare Species or an Appeal of Breathtaking and neither road nor improvements. Roads cannot be built on them.

Adjustments to national parks

• Tiles with Rare Species and Nature reserves can become part of National Parks even if they are on water tiles, no matter their appeal.
• Nature Reserves can also be created inside existing National Parks.

 

[acluewithout]

I'd like four things really.

First, there should be an option to do something with archeological sites other than extract relics. eg an improvement that turns a site into a tourist attraction. I think the trade off would be you get less tourism, but maybe it buffs appeal and provides more culture or gold (or maybe it's just flat out weaker but the benefit is just that you don't have to build an archeological museum).

Second, there should be some way you can have dinosaurs in your archeological musuem (yes, I know that's not what archeological means, but you know what I mean). This could be as simple as having a great person that provides a unique "dinosaur relic" that otherwise just works the same as an archeological relic.

Third, I'd like some benefit to linking up National Parks. It doesn't need to be any massive boost, but just something to make it feel rewarding.

Fourth, at some point you should be able to have National Parks over Ocean Tiles. I mean, Galapagos is literally a National Park.

 

[Zaarin]

Natural parks feel like a reductive treatment of nature conservation, especially since in real life marshes and rainforests are far more likely to hold conservation interest than random forests or mountains.

Well, Firaxis is an American company, and most of our national parks are literally forests, mountains (usually mountains with glaciers), or deserts. What I'd like to see, like you suggested, is the option for smaller national parks. Sure, you've got the huge ones like Yellowstone and Yosemite, but you've also got small ones like Olympic National Park or Crater Lake.

 

[Phrozen]

Well, Firaxis is an American company, and most of our national parks are literally forests, mountains (usually mountains with glaciers), or deserts. What I'd like to see, like you suggested, is the option for smaller national parks. Sure, you've got the huge ones like Yellowstone and Yosemite, but you've also got small ones like Olympic National Park or Crater Lake.

Or even a town like Hot Springs National Park.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, Firaxis is an American company, and most of our national parks are literally forests, mountains (usually mountains with glaciers), or deserts. What I'd like to see, like you suggested, is the option for smaller national parks. Sure, you've got the huge ones like Yellowstone and Yosemite, but you've also got small ones like Olympic National Park or Crater Lake.

Careful, there: while Crater Lake is only about 740 square kilometers size, and Yellowstone is over 10,000 square kilometers, Olympic at 3740 square kilometers is almost 750 square kilometers Larger than Yosemite. And all of them are dwarfed by the Alaska Parks - the one all the way up north is over 30,000, and Denali over 19,000 square kilometers. Trying to rank or grade the National Parks by size is a losing game: Hot Springs, mentioned above, is about 22 square kilometers, a bunch are just under 1000, and then you've got the behemoths like Denali and Yellowstone, but size has no relationship to popularity - or in game terms, Tourism Generated.

But in addition to the National Parks there are a bunch of State Parks, National Battlefields, Cemeteries, Monuments, etc. so it would be nice to see more variety in "National Park" generation:
1. Where a battle takes place (Game Definition: a combat Not involving Barbarian units in which one side is destroyed And one or both sides had a Great General's influence or a Corps or Army formation in the combat - that will keep every other tile from generating a Battlefield by the Modern Era!) you can establish a Battlefield Park/Cemetary. Covers only one tile, generates Tourism and Loyalty (Patriotism?)
2. Other 'One Tile' "Parks" could include:
Conservation Park - any tile where one of the OP's Rare Species were, or any Unimproved, Unchopped tile without a District or City on it (a Naturalist can remove any Improvement completely, but if it's been Chopped it cannot be turned into a Park, which nerfs Chopping a little more, potentially). Limited to One per City.
Spa - any tile with a Thermal Vent, or any tile within 2 tiles of a Volcano (doesn't have to be active). Provides Tourism and Amenity
Retreat - a generic term for any of the "Get out of the City" areas like Sarasota Springs, the classical Romans' Capri, etc. Must be within 2 tiles of a City Center or Neighborhood, provides Tourism and Gold - because many of them in the Modern Era and later include Casinos, Race Tracks, Amusement Parks, and other Gold-producing 'extras'.
3. A new "Building" associated with a Dam could be a Recreation Lake, which forms in the tile upstream from the tile containing the Dam District itself. To keep it simple, these will always be 1 tile lakes, and they generate Tourism and Amenity.

More variety on the Map is always a good thing. . .

 

[Zaarin]

Olympic at 3740 square kilometers is almost 750 square kilometers Larger than Yosemite.

You're right; I was thinking of the relatively small Hoh Rainforest segment of the park.

A new "Building" associated with a Dam could be a Recreation Lake, which forms in the tile upstream from the tile containing the Dam District itself. To keep it simple, these will always be 1 tile lakes, and they generate Tourism and Amenity.

I'm pretty certain this is why the Dam already provides an amenity.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'm pretty certain this is why the Dam already provides an amenity.

Hah! Forgot about that - I was only considering the 'Modern' recreational facilities like the ones around Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam and others. Investing in such infrastructure could conceivably be a Modern Era + possibility, but I'm not sure anybody needs to invest in Amenities by that time in the game: my experience has been that Amenities are pretty much no longer a problem by the Renaissance Era unless you have made some serious mistakes earlier.

 

[Zaarin]

Hah! Forgot about that - I was only considering the 'Modern' recreational facilities like the ones around Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam and others. Investing in such infrastructure could conceivably be a Modern Era + possibility, but I'm not sure anybody needs to invest in Amenities by that time in the game: my experience has been that Amenities are pretty much no longer a problem by the Renaissance Era unless you have made some serious mistakes earlier.

I think on the one hand they were trying to make Dams more appealing (since even with disasters on Hyperreal floods are rarely that much of a nuisance), but it would have made more sense to make it a Modern era building. But you're also right about Amenities. In my current game on YnAMP's Giant Earth, my Aztec Empire stretches from Chile to Alaska, covering the entire Pacific coast in between, all of northern South America, all of Mexico, and into the heartland of the US and Canada. I have a single Entertainment Complex that I built simply for the era score from the Tlachtli. All of my cities have 7+ Amenities. Granted the Aztec get bonus Amenities from luxuries, but still...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think on the one hand they were trying to make Dams more appealing (since even with disasters on Hyperreal floods are rarely that much of a nuisance), but it would have made more sense to make it a Modern era building. But you're also right about Amenities. In my current game on YnAMP's Giant Earth, my Aztec Empire stretches from Chile to Alaska, covering the entire Pacific coast in between, all of northern South America, all of Mexico, and into the heartland of the US and Canada. I have a single Entertainment Complex that I built simply for the era score from the Tlachtli. All of my cities have 7+ Amenities. Granted the Aztec get bonus Amenities from luxuries, but still...

Dams, I think, are another 'District" that shoulda been an Improvement. BUT if they were going to make them a District, they should have given them more "Buildings" or "Tiers" to improve them. It's Inconsistencies like that in the scheme of Districts/Buldings that make me wonder if they actually put any thought into the District in question. Dams could have had:
Irrigation Lake - Allows you to apply an "Irrigation Bonus" up to 2 tiles away from the river this Dam is on, giving +1 Food to any Plains, Grassland, or Desert non-Hill tiles. In Modern Era, can also apply to Hill tiles of those types.
Recreation Lake - An Amenity and Gold producer, available in Atomic Era
And, of course, the Hydroelectric Plant already in the game.

As for 'artificial' Amenities from Districts or Buildings, in 2000 hours of play I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've built an Entertainment District, and one of those was strictly to get a chance to build Trajan's Amphitheater (Colosseum), since I was 'roleplaying' a bit as Rome. . .

 

[Jkchart]

I think on the one hand they were trying to make Dams more appealing (since even with disasters on Hyperreal floods are rarely that much of a nuisance), but it would have made more sense to make it a Modern era building. But you're also right about Amenities. In my current game on YnAMP's Giant Earth, my Aztec Empire stretches from Chile to Alaska, covering the entire Pacific coast in between, all of northern South America, all of Mexico, and into the heartland of the US and Canada. I have a single Entertainment Complex that I built simply for the era score from the Tlachtli. All of my cities have 7+ Amenities. Granted the Aztec get bonus Amenities from luxuries, but still...

Dams, I think, are another 'District" that shoulda been an Improvement. BUT if they were going to make them a District, they should have given them more "Buildings" or "Tiers" to improve them. It's Inconsistencies like that in the scheme of Districts/Buldings that make me wonder if they actually put any thought into the District in question. Dams could have had:
Irrigation Lake - Allows you to apply an "Irrigation Bonus" up to 2 tiles away from the river this Dam is on, giving +1 Food to any Plains, Grassland, or Desert non-Hill tiles. In Modern Era, can also apply to Hill tiles of those types.
Recreation Lake - An Amenity and Gold producer, available in Atomic Era
And, of course, the Hydroelectric Plant already in the game.

As for 'artificial' Amenities from Districts or Buildings, in 2000 hours of play I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've built an Entertainment District, and one of those was strictly to get a chance to build Trajan's Amphitheater (Colosseum), since I was 'roleplaying' a bit as Rome. . .

At the risk of de-railing this thread, just a quick add - I do think they could expand on dams and canals with giving additional tier buildings (on top of that, there needs to be a T3 aerodrome building), so anything to add to them to make them "full" districts is a good idea. I think sewers, unrelated to these but just another point I want to throw in, should have either more housing or even add an amenity there because clean water and toilets IS an amenity, and it's a big deal!

And to bring the thread full circle, yes @circeus , these are wonderful ideas to expand archaeology and nature conservation. Reminds me of when there was a forest preserve improvement in Civ IV. I have also started a short suggestion in the forum on how we should add ruins back into the game to further the system. All wonderful ideas in this thread.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I think that neighborhoods should get an amenity if they are adjacent to at least one unimproved forest. Two if it's a national park

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think that neighborhoods should get an amenity if they are adjacent to at least one unimproved forest. Two if it's a national park

I would amend that slightly to "unimproved, unchopped Forest tile" - from personal experience, Old Growth forests even in small patches are awesome.

Another possibility would be that, say, in the Modern Era (with Civic: Conservation?) any Unchopped ("Old Growth") Forest would add +1 Desirability to surrounding tiles, making not only a neighboring Neighborhood more useful, but also giving the possibility of making a National Park based on such forested tiles.

Of course, this would also 'Buff" the Maori somewhat . . .

 

[oSiyeza]

Natural parks feel like a reductive treatment of nature conservation, especially since in real life marshes and rainforests are far more likely to hold conservation interest than random forests or mountains.

New resources: fossils and rare species

• Fossils are a special resource found only on land tiles, and revealed by Natural History. They are more likely to be found on hills and tiles adjacent to rivers or coast.
  
• Rare Species are revealed at Conservation (or through Charles Darwin special ability), and can be found on any tile, including coast or lake tiles. They are more likely to be found on or adjacent to tiles with oases, marshes or rainforests.
• There are six types of species and fossils: plants, mammals, fish, birds, insects and herpetiles, with varying likelihood of appearing on any given terrain or feature.
  • I'd like to work in mineral specimens, but I am not sure how.
• Fossil can be extracted by archeologist, and species can be collected by naturalist, generating a Rare Specimen.
  
• Rare Species on land yield +1 science within the territory of a Zoo, and one or sea or lake yield +1 science within the territory of an Aquarium. Fossils do not give any yield.
  
• Rare Species and Fossils are destroyed by volcanic eruptions just like other harvestable resources. In fact, all types of disasters may destroy Rare Species.
• Actively building anything the tiles one will remove the species or fossil. This does not count automatic roads such as those created by traders or Rome's special ability.
• Harvesting anything (for species) or quarriable resources (for fossils) will also remove them.
• Destroying a rare species may cause grievances from environmentalist leaders. Destroying a fossil will cause grievances from scientific leaders.
• Some rare species and fossils remain hidden! They will be revealed if are withing the line of sight of an archeologist or naturalist.

New building/improvements: Natural history museums, research stations and Nature reserves

Natural history museums

• Natural History Museums are a thirds type of museum, available at Natural history. They can hold fossils and rare specimens.
• Rare specimens are created by Naturalists and will remove the rare species from the tile.
• A natural history museum is themed by putting three fossils or three rare specimens of different types in it.
  
• Fossils can be held in archeological museums just like artifacts, but fossils cannot be used to theme an archeological museum
• Naturalists now have charges! A naturalist created in a city with a Natural History Museum has 3 charge, otherwise only 1.
• It takes 2 charges to establish a national park.

Research stations and Nature Reserves

• Research stations and Nature Reserves are national park-like improvement. They can be damage and even destroyed by disasters, but not removed by any player action.
• Naturalists can use 1 charge to build 1-tile Nature Preserves and Research Station improvements (including on coast tiles). Doing so expends the Naturalist.
• Mounties can establish Nature Reserves, but not build Research Stations.
• Research Stations generate +1 tourism and +2 science. They can only be built on tiles with Rare Species or a resource. Doing so removes the Rare Species, but generates a Rare Specimen if an appropriate great work slot is available.
• Nature Reserves generate +1 tourism, +2 culture and +1 amenity to their city. They can be built only on tiles with Rare Species or an Appeal of Breathtaking and neither road nor improvements. Roads cannot be built on them.

Adjustments to national parks

• Tiles with Rare Species and Nature reserves can become part of National Parks even if they are on water tiles, no matter their appeal.
• Nature Reserves can also be created inside existing National Parks.

I love all these suggestions. What about a World Congress to penalize or ban building, improving or chopping jungles or other natural areas (maybe restricted to a continent or an area), or other specific conservation policies like forbid new fishing boats or oil rigs to a heavy pollution civ.

What about implementing a pollution civ ranking, so the heavy polluters can be taxed or trade baned?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I love all these suggestions. What about a World Congress to penalize or ban building, improving or chopping jungles or other natural areas (maybe restricted to a continent or an area), or other specific conservation policies like forbid new fishing boats or oil rigs to a heavy pollution civ.

What about implementing a pollution civ ranking, so the heavy polluters can be taxed or trade baned?

All interesting ideas, but in fact no international body has managed to get anybody to stop polluting or despoiling. Even the International Whaling Ban has big holes in it through which the Japanese regularly drive whaling ships, and neither Indonesia nor Brazil has even slowed down the destruction of their extensive rainforest areas.
Having a chance as an individual Civ to ban all trading with another country or establish a ban on trading with anyone who trades with a country (the so-called Sanctions, which also tend to develop gaping holes in actual practice) would be a nice addition, but it would be more of a mechanic for the Diplomatic Game than the Conservation Game.

 

[oSiyeza]

All interesting ideas, but in fact no international body has managed to get anybody to stop polluting or despoiling. Even the International Whaling Ban has big holes in it through which the Japanese regularly drive whaling ships, and neither Indonesia nor Brazil has even slowed down the destruction of their extensive rainforest areas.
Having a chance as an individual Civ to ban all trading with another country or establish a ban on trading with anyone who trades with a country (the so-called Sanctions, which also tend to develop gaping holes in actual practice) would be a nice addition, but it would be more of a mechanic for the Diplomatic Game than the Conservation Game.

The point is that all game systems could interact with each other. Generating deeper ways to interplay with other civs, as well as having fun developing personal gameplays experiences.

The idea is that those simple mechanisms, could affect the climate change, and could also have an economic and cultural effects in civs that choose to ignore them.

That is a feature that the game is missing, since climate change affects all civs equally, the polluters and the non polluters. This could be a way to improve on that, offering gameplay advantages in diplomacy, turism or even happineess to the civs that are greener than competition.

 

[circeus]

The point is that all game systems could interact with each other. Generating deeper ways to interplay with other civs, as well as having fun developing personal gameplays experiences.

The idea is that those simple mechanisms, could affect the climate change, and could also have an economic and cultural effects in civs that choose to ignore them.

That is a feature that the game is missing, since climate change affects all civs equally, the polluters and the non polluters. This could be a way to improve on that, offering gameplay advantages in diplomacy, turism or even happineess to the civs that are greener than competition.

I agree. In fact my original notes included material about how creating/pillaging research stations and nature reserves would interact with the environmentalist and exploitative agenda.