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Naval combat: why not just up ships' ZOC to two tiles?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by wobuffet, Sep 1, 2011.

  1. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    The way embarking land units works right now is silly, most players agree. Preventing an enemy Caravel from wiping out six Infantry in one turn in exchange for 0 damage shouldn't be a monumental (if not impossible) task.

    What if ships simply had their zone of control expanded to 2? Then "loosely" surrounding your mass of embarked units with a few Caravels, Destroyers, etc. would give you decent protection.
     
  2. eazyseeker

    eazyseeker Warlord

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    That would be great :goodjob:

    But then again, I do not believe this ZOC should extend to the mainland (as in, having tanks move 1 tile/turn on the coast just because a barbarian galley is a tile away from the shore :lol:)
     
  3. ViterboKnight

    ViterboKnight King

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    There's a similar thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=437958).

    However, i agree that a solution is definitely needed.

    Maybe, a single ship keeps its current ZOC (1 tile), while TWO ships create a bigger ZOC.



    Example. (using the - for a tile, the X for the ZOC, and the O for the ship).

    Single ship.

    --XOX--


    Two ships.

    --XOXXXO---


    Two ships create a bigger ZOC in the space between them.
    What about this?
     
  4. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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  5. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

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    Perhaps a nearby combat ship could provide the Defensive Embarkation to embarked units within a two tile range of the ship? That is, after the defensive embarkation promo is fixed so it doesn't make the embarked unit actually weaker against ranged attacks...
     
  6. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    Whenever I take an embarked unit with a ship, I can't take another one until the next turn. Am I doing it wrong or can only AI do it?

    Boarding ships: best solution
    Defensive embarkation when near ships: best quick solution.
     
  7. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    I was under the impression that ships currently have no zone of control. :confused:
     
  8. Montov

    Montov King

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    If I remember correctly, a ship can only wipe out 1 embarked unit per turn.
     
  9. ViterboKnight

    ViterboKnight King

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    Yes, each ship 1 attack per turn (or instead, 1 embarked unit taken).

    However, the real problem is another: how many ships do I need to escort a single embarked unit?
    If i send a single unit, and three frigates all around as close as possible, there's still a good chance to lose the unit to an enemy ship.

    Surely, ZOCs must be wider for ships! Two tiles, and let's try it out!
    (of course, ZOCs only on water, land is not affected).
     
  10. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    yeah, that's it.

    They do, annoyingly, affect land units still on coasts.
     
  11. ReligionIsDumb

    ReligionIsDumb Chieftain

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    While this might solve the problem (ships have so much movement they could really just go around the ZOC and hit the embarked units from the other side, but it would make it harder), I don't think it solves the more fundamental underlying problem.

    Units cannot see as far as they move in a single turn. You can't "see" the enemy ship coming and move to intercept it because their movement speed is greater than your sight range. Even if you send an armada of ships in flanking positions, an enemy ship still has plenty of movement to be completely out of your sight range during your turn and be able to attack your embarked units during its turn. Missile cruisers for example can hit something 10 hexes away during their turn, whereas sight range on the ocean is what...2?

    There are a variety of ways to fix this. 1) increase sight range of units. It doesn't need to be as large as the movement speed per say, but a ship on patrol (moving several units out from the escort and several units back to end the turn by its side should be able to spot any units that could potentially threaten their charge next turn)

    2) decrease the movement speed of ships

    3) allow units to do a "guard" action. This uses 1 movement point and ends the unit's turn(like an attack). When a unit is "guarding", the first enemy unit to enter its range will immediately be attacked interrupting their turn to resolve the attack. IMO, this should be done for land units too. It seems silly that mongol horse archers can consistently shoot at archers without the archers ever getting to return fire.
     
  12. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    Embarked units should be like civil units on land so that they can share tiles with millitary units. That way a group of embarked units is easily defended by a just as large group of naval ships. In most cases you won't have as many naval units available so there will still be holes in your invasionforce most of the times (as there should be).
     
  13. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Eh, I don't think they should be able to share tiles; I like how you actually have to think about naval warfare to some extent, and the greater the threat to embarked units, the more that this is the case. The suggestion for zone of control does make sense though (although perhaps not for naval units affecting land units), and could be a happy middle ground between more protection for your embarked units and the requirement for naval warfare to actually mean something.

    One issue that I'd be concerned about is submarines with ZOC being very very deadly. Your Battleship would be stopped in its tracks without being able to see what was stopping it. And then they'd get blasted out of the water for their troubles. Another issue could be that if you told your unit to 'Go To' a tile that's out of your line of sight, pathfinding could be a bit weird if you suddenly find a barb galley in your path.
     
  14. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    That would actually be very useful... making submarines better. (The "Guard" option might be better... ie first thing in range gets blasted)
     
  15. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    actually, to make subs more 'viable', let them share tiles with any civ. that way, they can't get detected by trying to move onto random tiles.
     
  16. Blue Oyster

    Blue Oyster Stealth is an Illusion

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    With the proper promotion, one ship or boat can destroy two embarked units per turn.
     
  17. That nerdy kid

    That nerdy kid Vampire Slayer Slayer

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    what i do is move ships around so that i can try to find enemy units (ie, send a destroyer 4 tiles away from embarked units and see if there are any enemies).
     
  18. Rpger29

    Rpger29 Prince

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    This is still an unrealistic and gamey mechanic that really needs to be addressed. The player can abuse it just as much as (or likely more than) the AI, but that equality doesn't make it any less silly.

    I personally like the idea of a "guard" feature. On land, this is already a non-issue. You can stack a military unit on a civilian to protect it (within reason). You can't do this with naval units, and I don't think we want to add that to the game. Camikaze gives a very good reason in his post.

    You have my vote for the "guard" feature for naval units as suggested by ReligionIsDumb.
     
  19. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    This seems like the the best option, actually. Two tile radius might seem like a lot of protection afforded by just one ship (protect 18 embarked land units with 1 ship??), but embarking with a very high embarked units:ship ratio would still be quite risky, since simply taking out the single ship in the middle would leave all the land units vulnerable.

    While we're at it, why not let land units attack embarked land units as long as they're one tile away (albeit taking the -50% amphibious attack penalty)? It's ridiculous that a 1HP unit can simply retreat to a 1-tile lake, even if that lake's surrounded by enemy units, as long as no ranged units are around to finish it off.
     
  20. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    How would that work in warfare, though? Would you be able to move onto the same tile as an enemy? Would they be able to attack you then? Would you be able to attack them?
     

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