Naval fleets (armies) and air squadrons

starrider

Warlord
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
161
I'd love to see the ability to have naval fleets, just like we have armies in civ3. This would be great for destoyers, submarines (think wolfpacks!) and crusiers. They fight together and die together.

Air groups would be great too....bomber squadrons, fighter squadrons. Not as essential as naval fleets, but :)
 
I agree. Atleast the naval "armadas" would be great! Air groups would perhaps not be needed, but why not?
 
You should be able to have a naval great leader, and then the leader can build a fleet.
 
fleets woul dbee great yes.. air squadrons.. ..hmm..meybi locking units? so bombers all bomb one square.. and essential.. bombing needs to kill a unit.. exept infantary.. couse seperate people or soliders can hide from big bombs.. but tanks cannot
 
I would have the naval great leader called a "flagship" or some such. It can then be used to either create a memorial (granting some happines-related bonus) in one of your cities, or create a fleet.
 
not a bad idea.. or instead of memorial it could also (besides using it to made fleets ) be used to make a small wonder in a coast city which would produce war ships like in some civ2 scenarios (richard crusaide wonder produced crusaider every 5turns i think)
 
The naval great leaders could be called Admirals.
 
Tell me, how would you get your admiral back to the port if you *happen* to win one with a ship which has no transport capacity?

Better to make the naval great leader a flagship - thus a ship - thus able to sail back to the port on its own in perfectly logical ways.
 
Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
Tell me, how would you get your admiral back to the port if you *happen* to win one with a ship which has no transport capacity?

Better to make the naval great leader a flagship - thus a ship - thus able to sail back to the port on its own in perfectly logical ways.

Well, I figured that it would be obvious that the admiral needs a ship or flotation device of some kind, lest he sink upon the waves. I say we give the admiral a 'flagship.' The leader is only one unit, an admiral on his flagship. This would retain consistency with Civ 3 - In which leaders are Washington or Einstein, not Flagship A and Flagship B.
 
Here is another idea. Instead of creating a new unit, have the old one gain the powers of a leader!

If you bring it back to port, you can order it to create a fleet... but WITHOUT losing the ship. It instead returns to its normal state.

This way we would not have the incredibly odd circumstance of a new ship suddenly appearing in the midst of a stack.
 
Originally posted by Aeon221
Here is another idea. Instead of creating a new unit, have the old one gain the powers of a leader!

If you bring it back to port, you can order it to create a fleet... but WITHOUT losing the ship. It instead returns to its normal state.

This way we would not have the incredibly odd circumstance of a new ship suddenly appearing in the midst of a stack.

I like the idea of having no unit, but what if the ship is a defending transport? Then again, in Civ4 it may be possible to add or remove units from an army - you could just add a unit, then remove the transport.

Of course, that is just speculation.
 
The topic here seems to deal with the ability to form "armies" with naval and air units, much the same way they are formed with land based units. My idea is to form combat groups of these units that aren't armies in the sense of units locked together as one, but rather as a means by which to more efficiently conduct combat operations without having to give the same orders to multiple units doing the same thing. This concept is actually an extension of the "battle groups" idea submitted in this thread . Also check out my "Escort" idea in the same thread.

First, I'll address naval groups. If naval "armies" are to be called "Fleets", then call the combat groups "Task Forces". I initially thought researching a tech for this ability would be a good idea, but since the overall objective is to reduce the tediousness of issuing combat orders for groups of attackig units, I saw the point of others who felt that tech research in order to gain this ability would be overly complicating things. Combat groups are merely a simplification of large-scale combat events and not intended to confer any advantage to a player who uses them other than not having to micromanage every unit in a stack. There is no combined Hit Point bonus or extra movement like in Armies, each unit in a combat group is an individual unit that is capable of recieving and executing group orders, and which has the option of leaving the combat group at any time.

Some basic groundwork on "Task Forces". In order to form a "Task Force", whenever two or more naval vessels are in the same square, you should have an option to "form/join Task Force", like through an icon. A "Task Force" can be individually named (credit jonathan_95060 from the "battle groups" topic for the idea) like TF 58.1 or Monster Navy, etc. A "Task Force" moves as a stack, so it can only move as fast as the slowest unit in the stack. Units in a "Task Force" could be individually ordered, top to bottom, according to the whims of the player, though I'd prefer decending order of either defensive strength or bombardment power. Each unit in the stack can be identified, or "seen" as an individual unit (with the proper abilities, in the case of subs), and individually attacked by subs. Additional units may jon a "Task Force" at any time, and any unit in the "Task Force" can leave at any time by activating and splitting from the "Task Force". Other units may occupy the same square as a "Task Force" without actually being part of the "Task Force". (Micromanagement would still be available for those who desire it.)

I see basically three uses for such groups of ships:
Naval vs naval engagements,
Bombardment of ships or shores, and
Landings
A Task Force can perform any or all of these actions provided it has the requisite movement and attacks available. Ideally, an action icon, like the Bombard icon, would be shown while the Task Force is active, indicating which actions can be performed by the Task Force. The actions could only be taken without any movement involved, i.e. engagements and landings could only be performed against an adjacent square, bombardments only against squares within maximum range (1 or 2 depending on composition of the Task Force). Naturally, the "Landings" option would only be available if transport capable ships were present in the Task Force.

The "Engage" option would allow the Task Force to attack an adjacent enemy naval unit, stack, or Task Force (provided it hads the movement to do so) and "group attack" the taget square until one force is destroyed. The unit with the highest attack rating would attack until either the first target unit or the attacking unit itself is destroyed. Then the next unit would attack, and so on, just like all the units were individually told to attack under the current rules. This would go on until all the defenders are destroyed, all the attackers are destroyed, or the attackers run out of attacks. I would like to see a gameplay option where the player can choose whether Carriers and transport capable ships engage enemies. Personally, I'd rather have those types of vessels wait in the attacking square, and have just the combat vessels move to engage the enemy. Depending on the outcome of the battle, these other vessels would either move to join the combat vessels in the newly secured square, or stay in the attack square. If there were no surviving attacking vessels, they would then become active as the sole surviving members of the original Task Force.

"Bombard" would be similar to how it is now, with the exception that all capable ships in the Task Force would bombard the target square sequentially (if in range for the ship type). The bombardment would continue until all ships have bombarded or all viable targets in the square have been removed (terrain improvements destroyed or units reduced to one hit point, etc.). If there are stil ships capable of bombarding, a new target square can be selected and the reamaining ships would bombard that square. All ships which do bombard would have the normal mobility deduction like they do now.

The "Land" option would be the same as it is now, except all transports in the Task Force would land all their units on the target square. If there are enemy units in the square, any Marines carried by the transports would attack until they run out of attacks or the enemy is destroyed. If the enemy is destroyed, all remeaining units will land. If the enemy is not destroyed, all uits remain on the transports, and a different landing square could be selected (if it is clear, since there are no more Marines able to attack). If necessary or desired, a Bombard action could be performed before the Land action in order to soften up defences.

I'm out of time, so I'll post my air grouping ideas later.
 
I really don't like this naval army ideas at all, Can't see any way it will improve gameplay and realism at all. It's better as it is, each ship is fighting for themselves, thats realism.

Gather alot of ships together, then you got a fleet, choose your formation, than you have fleet tactics. 3 battleships in one unit will just make a super battleship, no realistic feel of a navy!!!

3 battleships sailing together is allready a much stronger force then just one sailing for itself, probably they can bombard any seaunit down to 1 HP, unharmed, and then sink it.

So please forget this idea, or improve it alot!
 
Having made 4 six month deployments as part of aircraft carrier battle groups, I can't say I see much benefit to naval armadas. I have to agree with Philips beard that I wouldn't add much to gameplay or realism.
 
I am number 4 in agreeing with Phillips beard. Although having to order each ship may be tiresome, I think that taskforces would not add anything to realism.
 
I don't know if anyone is familiar with CALL TO POWER 2, but I'd say make the armies and navies like they were in Call TO POWER 2. Make it possible to group units together but not make them one big unit...have a group of units fight another group of units an a bunch of individual units working together...allow for the loading and unloading of these units...and as far as size...tie that into a certain tech...size 3 military tradition...size 6 radio or electronics...size 10 computers...If this change wasn't made, I'd just as soon have armies be removed unless the AI's use of them and especially building of them can be improved...
 
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