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Naval Melee Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Bromar1, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    I didn't want to clutter up the promotions threads out there so I figured it would be good to have a separate thread for each unit type. Here are my thoughts on Naval Melee units.

    Right now, I go for boarding party 99% of the time. The only time I go coastal raider is if I already have an established navy and there are some (very) weak cities that I want to take. And even then, it's better to build Naval Ranged units and give them the bombardment promotion. I'd like to see Coastal Raider be a more utility/harassment type promotion line.

    With the current state of coastal raider, going up against a city with walls with triremes is essentially pointless if the enemy has even one or two ranged or siege units. You might get in one attack with each unit before having to retreat all the way back to friendly territory to heal after a counterattack.

    @ElliotS had the idea to move Supply to unlock after coastal raider 1, which I think is pretty good.

    My suggestion would be to change coastal raider to give a defense boost when attacked by ranged units (essentially Cover for Naval ships) and reducing the amount of Gold stolen from attacks. This way, melee units can simulate a blockade by hanging around in enemy waters and breaking city connections, plundering trade routes, and denying coastal tiles while stealing a little bit of gold.

    Coastal raider ships would still be pretty vulnerable to opposing navy so promotion choices will become more balanced IMO
     
    vyyt and ElliotS like this.
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I'm ambivalent to the suggested coastal raider changes, but I think supply needs to be unlocked after coastal raider 1.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Generally the game changing promotions go in the 4th slot, and supply is a game changer. I think its alright where it is.

    The issue with coastal raider is you cannot realistically siege with melee ships other than during the super early game, and your triple promoted units have no benefits against other ships whatsoever. I think its just too specialized, make it +10% CS, +10% against cities and it would be fine. The gold on attacks is actually really interesting I hope it can stay.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  4. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    I really like the gold steal aspect as well. I just don't see how you could get any decent use out of it. Right now, there are very few circumstances where you can feasibly attack into cities to loot gold.

    I think it would be interesting to wage wars to disrupt and steal from your opponents. However, the only times you can do so are, as you said, in the very early game. I'd like to see the overall payoff (in terms of gold stolen, etc) to be lower but the ability to do so be more relevant to later parts of the game.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I wonder if we should just the melee healing weakness in the bud and give them supply off the bat. That way melee at least have a chance of staying in the fight, and have one advantage that ranged ships don't have
     
  6. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Eh, that might be a bit too much. Melee ships with boarding party promotions can eat ranged ships in one attack if they're flanked.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I agree that coastal raider is pointless in current state. It can be argued that you can promote to level 4 and get supply, but you need to make those raider promoted ships level up, with a promotion that helps very little. Anything that helps in actual combat will be better than city related promotions. I can take a newly founded city with an ironclad, but by this point I don't really need promotions.

    Things that could go instead:
    - +5% CS, +25% XP
    - +10% CS, gold on killings
    - Heal 5CS on killings,
    - +5%CS, +15% against ranged
     
  8. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Coastal Raider imho should get -XX% received damage for hitting stuff (if possible) or -XX% received ranged damage. As it is, it's only not bad when Denmark and see cities without walls, but even then it takes lots of time of healing back, though once a Trireme gets to lvl3 Raider, it gets like 200% Gold/taken HP ratio which is decent, especially if you consider it scales. From my observations and comparisons of Triremes with 3 CR Glory Hounds and with only 3x CR, I don't think Glory Hounds stacks with Denmark though which ruins the tactic and makes it way less useful in the long run. Of course as soon as Walls come up it stops being a worthwhile thing pretty much even if you already have Supply and CR3, because you can only attack once and move back.

    I recommend Coastal Raider to be:

    +20% CS against cities, +33% HP/Gold conversion (34 for level 3 as is now), receive -10% (15%?) damage from attacking. At least your Triremes at lvl 3 CR will be able to hit a walled city twice before being forced to retreat instead of just once. A promotion like Siege for Melee (diamond with +50% City attack) would be very nice to see too, perhaps locked between lvl2 City Raiders, though that one might already be there and it's just me who fails to see.
     
  9. StugLife

    StugLife Chieftain

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    I´d be fine with anything that makes them able to survive little longer to actually make use of the gold stealing ability, be that healing from damage dealt to city, more protection from ranged attacks or even ability to pillage adjacent coastal tiles.
     
    Bromar1 and vyyt like this.

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