Naval Success

cutlass66

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 23, 2007
Messages
8
I often see posts requesting "more on naval advice," so I'm throwing my two cents out there.

Obviously, on a pangea map you can completely ignore navies (not saying you should). On the maps where they're required a strong navy can be sooo much fun... and make defense easy.

In my experience (somewhat limited) I haven't seen the AI make a strong run for Astronomy and Chemistry. Once they get the technology, they don't work too hard to produce frigates and galleons to control the seas. So even without a technology and/or production advantage you can still have the strongest navy... and with the strongest navy you don't need the strogest army.

Once at this point I consistenly succeed with a simple strategy: always pair up your ships. Two galleons will almost never lose to a single enemy galleon. Same follows when you get frigates. The AI usually won't attack your pair of ships unless they have a superior force. At the beginning of a war you can quickly eliminate all the lone ships to secure a numerical advantage, then blockade enemy ports or patrol open waters to ensure that enemy attacks never make landfall. It's way cheaper and easier to sink a boat than to destroy the army inside it. If you have to sacrifice ships to achieve this it's still worth it, so long as you have more ships than the enemy.

I've seen the subject of Ironclads come up a few times. Usually it's a discussion about how they're not very useful, and most people skip them. Assuming you're on a map that requires you to cross open ocean, the ironclad is reduced to mostly defense. I usually build a pair of them to demolish any enemy ships that make it to my coast. By that point the enemy has probably landed troops... but if I can destroy the ships that brought them I'll still consider it a small victory.

If you can beat an enemy navy once, they'll have a very hard time building up enough to challenge you again. You'll have experienced ships and they won't. Once again, the AI falters here. They'll have a whole army sitting around unused while they send out a couple ships at a time to be annihilated by a superior navy.

In combat, I usually attack with my less experienced ship first. If you lose, your more experienced ship can finish the job and continue to promote into a flagship that can never be challenged. Keep those highly experienced frigates around until they can be upgraded to destoryers, and the ocean becomes a shooting range.

I haven't dealt with modern naval encounters much. One harsh lesson that I learned: If your opponent gets destroyers first... all the frigates in your fleet can't beat them. Modern navies the AI seems better at managing. They will stack a lot more ships together so you can't use just two ships to do the job.
 
In my experience (somewhat limited) I haven't seen the AI make a strong run for Astronomy and Chemistry. Once they get the technology, they don't work too hard to produce frigates and galleons to control the seas. So even without a technology and/or production advantage you can still have the strongest navy... and with the strongest navy you don't need the strogest army.

.

You haven't played against Jaoa or William yet. They both beeline those techs (makes sense due to their UUs).
 
I put a string of fregates/destroyers in the open sea to look for potential assault. At least before BTS the enemy is preti repetitive. If you see a stack of lonely galeons they are not going to attack. But if they are escorted by fregates/destroyers the attack is imminent. The problem is you cannot attack them without starting a war but in many cases it is preferable the AI to declare (defensive pacts and such).
So I check at the number of the galeons/transports and look if I can move enough troops to deal with the assault on the land. The AI attacks with 3 - 4 galeons which means 9-12 units - not a big deal when you are prepared. And this means addional XP for the units and for the general. Of course the enemy fleet is destryed after the disembarkment.
 
Sorry I didn't specify this before: I'm playing Vanilla, and I'd imagine that changes things a lot. Eventually I'll upgrade to BTS, but not until I get bored with Vanilla.
 
Sorry I didn't specify this before: I'm playing Vanilla, and I'd imagine that changes things a lot. Eventually I'll upgrade to BTS, but not until I get bored with Vanilla.

Then I agree, most AIs do not prioritize Astronomy although if I recall they did go after chemistry in Vanilla. I haven't played a Vanilla game since Warlords came out.
 
Good tips, cutlass. :goodjob:

But as you're playing vanilla, in which navies are often peripheral, you're missing out on the massive overhaul given to naval operations in BtS:

*Intercontinental trade routes are potentially more lucrative now.

*Dutch and Portugese UUs are both ships (the Dutch UB is also great for building them, as is the Maoi Statues national wonder)

*There are several new naval vessels, including Privateers (which can attack without declaring war) and Ships of the Line (which are like slower but more powerful frigates)

*Later on, you can fire sea-land missiles (inc. tactical nukes).

*Forts can now act as canals, and give your ships somewhere to heal in safety.

*Many ships can now blockade enemy territory (Privateers can blockade anyone's territory), disrupting trade routes and preventing a lot of sea tiles from being worked. This is possibly the most important change.

*The new Airship unit is great for protecting yourself against enemy navies.

*The new map types 'Big & Small' and 'Medium & Small' have a nice balance between continents and islands, making naval power much more important than on normal 'Continents' maps.

*The use of another new feature, colonies, depends on your navy to transport settlers and/or troops, and to protect your trade routes from privateers and enemy ships.

If you like a bit of naval action, you really ought to get the expansion asap. :deal:
 
My best tip for a navy is these two points:
1) For every transport, have 4 ships guarding. This may sound like overkill, but the trouble here is that since each transport carries 4 units, you should have a ship for each.
2) Try the "sonar net". Under the right civics or buildings (Theocracy and Drydock, for example), ships get 2 free promotions after building. Thus, upgrade submarines with a Flanking I and Sentry I, allowing 1 extra tile of LOS. Simply arrange the subs around your land such that the edge of one sub's LOS lines up with another. The advanced warning should be enough to get a couple ships going for defense.
 
My best tip for a navy is these two points:
1) For every transport, have 4 ships guarding. This may sound like overkill, but the trouble here is that since each transport carries 4 units, you should have a ship for each.

I don't understand this. What is the common between the ships "garding" and the number of units its carring? For each transport you need just one ship, no matter if the transport has 1,2,3 or 4 units on the board.
 
You don't "need" any ship. You need enough ships to face what your enemy is likely to throw at you. Indeed, i don't see a direct link between the number of ships and the number of units, but maybe he intended it more like a rule of thumb. Not that i'd agree with it either, btw. I think it's too circumstancial to give a hard number like this.
 
Good tips, cutlass. :goodjob:



If you like a bit of naval action, you really ought to get the expansion asap. :deal:



After saying that I would upgrade someday I started reading up on BTS and saw how much it adds to the naval aspect of the game (as you pointed out)... and for that reason I'm soon to buy it.

Off topic: I love how friendly and constructive people are here. Forums for Battlefield 2 are nothing more than 12 year olds and/or people with no life bickering about how stupid everyone is. My thanks to everyone with intelligent feedback instead of "You suck at life."
 
Hmmm...I apologize for any confusion, but i intended it as a "rule of thumb" like Percy said. On the higher difficulties, the AI will have modern ships at the same time you do, so protection is necessary. The main idea i point out is that if a Transport is loaded with units, its more valuable then any other ship on the map at the time, since its loss results in a deck to the assault force landing on shores. Because of this, guarding it with the right number of ships is a good idea. Maybe not 4 (especially if you have 5 or more transports) but 2 is a good number. Never 1, since if that 1 is destroyed by a stack, the transport's dead.
 
) Try the "sonar net". Under the right civics or buildings (Theocracy and Drydock, for example), ships get 2 free promotions after building. Thus, upgrade submarines with a Flanking I and Sentry I, allowing 1 extra tile of LOS. Simply arrange the subs around your land such that the edge of one sub's LOS lines up with another. The advanced warning should be enough to get a couple ships going for defense


Why are submarines better for this purpose than other ship types? Thanks in advance
 
Well submarines can only be seen by destroyers / other subs and can enter the coast of another civ without open borders. Another pont is that they are cheaper than other contemporary vessels. But if I can get the needed XP I would prefer caravels (less hammers if you still can build them). In BtS however I prefer airships to do the scouting job, at least for my coast, they cover more terrain than a sentry vessel and don't need any XP.
 
I would say a better rule of thumb is stack your transports and have 3+ defenders although I can get away with 2. Remember your defenders can be bombarding cities as well as escorting.
 
I ring the coasts around my territory with Destroyers that have Sentry promotions to look out for enemy Subs. I have a few stacks of 5 Battleships with Navigation 1 & 2 to do the fighting. I also leave a few Subs with Sentry in open ocean as an advanced warning.

I've not really done much Naval warfare though. I tend to go up against small stacks of inferior ships that don't stand a chance against my ships, so I've never had full-on battles. :rolleyes:
 
I ring the coasts around my territory with Destroyers that have Sentry promotions to look out for enemy Subs. I have a few stacks of 5 Battleships with Navigation 1 & 2 to do the fighting. I also leave a few Subs with Sentry in open ocean as an advanced warning.

I've not really done much Naval warfare though. I tend to go up against small stacks of inferior ships that don't stand a chance against my ships, so I've never had full-on battles. :rolleyes:

:lol: You could hardly have a more different approach from mine.

I always proritise carriers and fighters as the main scout and strike weapon with destroyers and subs as the stack protectors and finishers. Later subs with guided missiles are great to blow enemies out of the water (literally). Battleships come along so late that they are just used as heavy finishers when the enemy has good air cover (near coasts with cities and loads of fighters). My naval invasion is sceduled to make use of carriers and destroyers long before I research battleships. Also my battleships usually get the combat promotions for heavy slugging and solid defence against other battleships and destroyers. The fast light strikes are done by destroyers and subs.

Usually I end up with a ratio of about 3 destroyers to one carrier and one battleship and a sub with another sub detached for scouting. Against a strong air defence (city with airport and 8 fighters) find I need 3 carriers and plenty of spare fighters to fly in to replace losses. I have had some great naval-air battles.

Sometimes I build a sub fleet that can sail through culture when another civ won't give me open borders. That is great to sink a backward enemy's galleons and frigates. Just give one or two subs a medic promotion (yes frigates damage subs :( ) and then let lose the wolf packs. I did that to Monte in a game where he was being his usual objectional self (I kept saying NO to his silly demands early on so he hated me) and sank all his old sailing fleet and pillaged his seafood. Very satisfying :D and his buddy Hanibal couldn't do a thing about it without going to war with me.
 
Hmmm...I apologize for any confusion, but i intended it as a "rule of thumb" like Percy said. On the higher difficulties, the AI will have modern ships at the same time you do, so protection is necessary. The main idea i point out is that if a Transport is loaded with units, its more valuable then any other ship on the map at the time, since its loss results in a deck to the assault force landing on shores. Because of this, guarding it with the right number of ships is a good idea. Maybe not 4 (especially if you have 5 or more transports) but 2 is a good number. Never 1, since if that 1 is destroyed by a stack, the transport's dead.

You mean attacking, not defending. Because the thread was about defending form naval invasions. Of course you need several battle units to defend the stack of transports. Although sometiems I send just 3-4 transports. The AI is not good enough to make combined attack on the stack. The worst I've been through a single transport to be destroyed. Of course this is only is I have no time to bring some escort and the time is crucial.
 
With BtS, I think the airship can be considered a fairly important piece with respect to a navy as well. Airships are cheap and they are wonderful for scouting the sea; their range is incredible. As such, they allow me to build fewer defensive naval vessels and place the focus of hammers elsewhere.
 
Then I agree, most AIs do not prioritize Astronomy although if I recall they did go after chemistry in Vanilla. I haven't played a Vanilla game since Warlords came out.

No, AI in vanilla goes after chem pretty late. Tries to get rifling earlier, and I often see them build SAM infantry (they love rocketry because it gets them started on space race builds) before they've built a single grenadier.
 
Yup. I only have Vanilla. AI goes for Astronomy if its a Terra. Otherwise, its a beeline for Rocketry to enable Space Victory, the AIs preferred victory type.
 
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