Naval vs. Naval

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by 777, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. gunter

    gunter King

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    sorry for quoting myself but it seems the upcoming patch will increase the naval unit production instead of piling tons of land units. Appreciated and thanks.

    Now the next big issue is the Frigate vs Frigate battles lasting for 150-200 turns ending BTW with a draw.

    .......and Destroyers not able to sink Frigates

    thanks
     
  2. Thrax73

    Thrax73 Chieftain

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    Caravels are not a warship, they are good for scouting and for hitting transport ships. To light up enemy naval ships like it was the fourth of July use 3 or more frigates, destroyers and or battleships together and focus fire. a pair of aircraft carriers with full fighters can also be devastating(think of them as ultra long range arty) but better find lots of oil!
     
  3. Tylerryan79

    Tylerryan79 Emperor

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    Ya I agree 100%. In my last game (prince) I had one of my battleships, and a destroyer, attacking a frigate. I was amazed at how long this %$%# Frigate took to sink! My beast of a battleship was unable to sink this wooden ship? I then called in a destroyer I had around, and the two of them went at it. A few turns later the frigate is still there, and Rome had brought an artillary, and almost gave my battleship, with one hit, the same amount of damage both my battleship and destroyer had given the frigate. This needs to be fixed, I expect a battleship to take atleast half the health of a wooden ship.
     
  4. gunter

    gunter King

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    I quote you.

    That's a scandal indeed and we must riot for that and pretend this to be fixed in the first patch !

    Please , if you can ;)
     
  5. 777

    777 King

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    Frigate vs. frigate:
    Amusing thing is that catapult deals more damage than frigate at the next hex
     
  6. Gath

    Gath Warlord

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    Frigate strength is way too high relative to destroyers. Destroyer is 35/22. Frigate is 30/15. For the difference between a wooden sailing ship vs a steel turbine driven vessel this is not enough. Destroyer should wipe the floor with a frigate. Battleship is 60/32, also probably too low.

    Ships should be able to do a direct non-bombardment attack like land units. With a fix to their strengths, this would eliminate the problem.
     
  7. GeneralMayhem

    GeneralMayhem Chieftain

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    if you think ship to ship is slow, try killing a barbarian caravel with a city bombardment. takes forever.

    i hated that notice of blah blah city can fire on an enemy ship, so i brought a cannon down to the city, took 9 turns to move while firing on the ship with the city. cannon sunk the ship in 1 shot.
     
  8. gunter

    gunter King

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    I am deeply surprised and somehow angry about the fact that a player is forced to spend 30% of a whole game micromanaging frigates' and caravels' bugs.

    I am even more upset the next patch doesn't fix that, we will be forced to spend dozens of hours trying to kill a Frigate with a Destroyer...... not good Firaxis, not good.
     
  9. SlothMD

    SlothMD Chieftain

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    How is that mathematically possible?
    With a minimum damage of 1 hp/turn, and a maximum of 10 hps (assuming not using the mod which bumps hps), how does a combat last more than 10 turns, aside from the occasional insta-heal?
     
  10. gunter

    gunter King

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    Instant heal by frigates and medic promotions ( auto heal ) .

    In theory these circumstances may also lead to a never ending loop, therefore a battle that may last for 5 or 6 milions of turns.
     
  11. Blackfang

    Blackfang Chieftain

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    Up till frigates the ships are balanced well, IMO, but the modern ships are indeed underpowered.
    The destroyers should be about 40/30, compared to frigates - it will make the ships too powerful against land units, however, so all the industrial+ units will have to be rebalanced.
    Also, does someone else think that the Battleships and Cruisers are almost useless now? The destroyers: 1)don't use up resources, 2)upgrade from your heavily promoted frigates, 3) have a not that much lower ranged combat stat (and here the promotions are for the destroyers), 4)have a massive bonus against subs, and are the only ships that can detect them, 5)can intercept aircraft, 6)move a lot faster.
     
  12. gunter

    gunter King

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    I agree, then, I have to say that since Civ 2 naval power has always and sistematically relegated in a dark corner, underpowered and not developed. Not considered at all. NEVER.

    AI doesn't produce naval

    Naval is underpowered

    Naval is unbalanced

    Naval is bugged


    Hey , Shafer, have you ever played with naval into bath when kid ?
     
  13. ChaplainDMK

    ChaplainDMK Warlord

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    Ships should be extreamly powerfull against ground targets. The destroyer (a Fletcher class probably) has 6 127 mm cannons, thats basicaly a heavy artillery battery, so each Destroyer should roughly equall Artillery in power. The battleship should be a class for itself, with 9 402mm cannons it should be devestating to ground units. But naval units should also be alot more expensive, so you have smaller navies compared to ground armies.
    And i think Civ should simulate the huge differance of pre industrial age units to industrial and latter units (maybe a 50% combat bonus or something). Rifleman, Artillery, Infantry, Tanks, aircraft etc. should poulverise a pre industrial age army with no real problem.
     
  14. Blackfang

    Blackfang Chieftain

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    I always thought of the land units as divisions, not batteries/batallions etc. (and ships - well - single ships), so, IMO, the current balance between destroyers and artillery is good (Battleships are another matter, as I said, I believe them to be useless now.)

    I believe the land units are balanced quite well as it is. Have you tried attacking with tanks a civ using top medieval units? That's a complete, mindless slaughter, regardless of terrain and promotions. And when you get Blitz...
     
  15. Venger

    Venger Give it a tumble, sport

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    I find naval combat utterly broken - it is tedious and unenjoyable. Just let the damn ships fight it out like you do with land units. Bombardment for advantage is fine, but there needs to be direct ship-to-ship combat. And as noted, the strengths are a bit off. Once again, stacking that allows fleet formation (ala GalCiv/CTP, hell even MoO3) would go a long way toward making this better.
     
  16. gunter

    gunter King

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    Yes naval is utterly broken.
     
  17. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    It did work in the previews. Two shots (from two different frigates) took out one frigate. In theory this should work. How many times in a game will you have two-on-one?

    Ships only have ranged attack. They should have mellee against each other also. Going strength against strength, in open waters should not "break" the game. If a battle ship comes across a frigate in open waters, it should be able to use all of its strength against a frigate, not just it's ranged attack. Whatever happened to ramming another ship?
     
  18. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    I absolutely and completely agree... but I will say this -- there was another thread last week discussing the removal of TPs.. and the opinion, not surprising, was that YES - absolutely their removal was a good thing.

    I hold the minority opinion -- as a rare warmonger, I could certainly agree with the tedium of grouping a lot of TPs and then loading huge armies -- but it's just something you cannot abstract.

    My opinion here would "What did everyone expect?"

    When you completely remove the concept of unit transportation - and instead, just make it a tech that automatically allows everything and anything that instantly can sail whereever it darn well pleases - how can you realistically expect naval play to EVER be in any way "realistic"?

    The moment popping optics meant anything could cross coastal tiles - snap, just like that - and popping astronomy means everything can now cross oceans, again... just like that --

    Haven't you already pretty much made naval play inherently unrealistic?

    I mean, ocean-going troop transports were/are a reality -- sure -- in a pinch, nations would convert ocean lines (but note.. ocean liners... they certainly didn't conscript fishing boats to transport troops across the Atlantic). Getting transportation to the new world was a major undertaking for colonists.

    I agree - it's ridiculous that BB doesn't smash every wooden frigate within 50 miles in a single turn.... but it's no less ridiculous that every single military unit I have lining my shores can go from being land-locked one turn, to instantly ready to swim across the ocean the very next turn.

    You got what you wanted -- "naval play" that isn't really "naval play" -- all fruit of the same poison tree, IMO.
     
  19. Terrance888

    Terrance888 Discord Reigns

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    I'd like to ram my Battle Ship in the frigate and see if it still lasts XDAdaFAFHA turns! Their catapult took more out of my BB than they did to the surrounded Frigate in 8 turns!
     
  20. 777

    777 King

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    I think embarking units is great idea. I just want naval warfare to be reasonable.
     

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