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NC - 182 - Tokugawa - Japan

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
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    NC CLXXXII - Tokugawa - Japan

    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game.
    Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better.
    You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice so we all learn (and in Civ, learning never stops).

    Our next leader is Tokugawa of Japan, whom we last played in NC CXX.
    The Japanese start with Fishing and The Wheel.
    • Traits: Tokugawa is AGGressive and PROtective.
      AGG gives Combat I to all melee and gunpowder units, and doubles production of two XP-granting buildings, barracks and drydocks.
      PRO gives Drill I and City Garrison I to all archery and gunpowder units, and doubles production of two defensive buildings, walls and castles.
      But where is our economy ?
    • The UU: The Samurai, a Maceman with two first strikes and Drill I, on paper an above average UU.
      It’s great fun on lower levels but on higher levels unfortunately it comes at a time where many players want to build up their empires and/or the AI already gets longbows.

    • The UB: The Shale Plant, a Coal Plant that gives +10%:hammers: (on top of the +50% Power gives to factories). It's a late-game UB, that’s why many people think it‘s weak, but it is a little production boost in late-game victory conditions.
    And the start:


    Spoiler map details :

    Standard size, temperate climate, medium sea level.
    There are 3 continents forming a quite interesting map.
    Spoiler map edits :

    Several recreations to get a more interesting map form. Minor starting location edits for balance purpose. (e.g. 2 AIs were without real food. Moved 1 AI a few tiles for balance as well.


    Spoiler WARNING / highest difficulties: :

    this might be a little tough on deity
    Spoiler because :

    weak leader, average land, might get blocked in soon by the zealots, 3rd continent a bunch of happy builders.

    you've been warned, no complains!

    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

    There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

    1. 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
    2. 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
    3. 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
    4. 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
    5. 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
    6. End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

    This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

    We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

    Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing, reporting and giving advice.

    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 182 Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

    Note: The standard saves have huts and events turned ON. If you want huts but no events, select the regular save and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

    For players on Prince, you should use the Noble save, there's no techs to add nor units. Players have a slightly higher handicap, the computer a lower one.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.


    And the WB files:
    WB Save Files

    Have fun as always and try not to go on strike 1000BC :D
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    -- reserved for issues/announcements --
     
  3. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    Hmmm. . . bit of an awkward start. At first glance I think agri -> mining -> bw with a worker first is better than wb first. Farm the rice, mine the PH, chop and mine the two riverside grassland hills for early worker turns and quick wb/settler from chops. Might change based on what's in the fog though. I will give it a go after I finish the Immortal Students game.
     
  4. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    I say, send warrior 1NE. If he finds a good food resource, settle on rice. If he doesn't, settle on plains hill.

    i'll play this game later today probably. (haven't finished the suli game yet but that's not urgent...)
     
  5. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Whilst I agree with the first part of your approach, 'If he doesn't, settle on plains hill'. makes me wonder. Dry rice with a low chance of good food special on top of it is really weak. If the warrior fails to see food but reveals good commerce you might get agressive from that fast PH start, but if it doesn't, I fail to see how that position is better than the slow, but solid fish available in the SIP.

    I consider you a way better player than myself, so i'm probably missing something here.

    Regardless, need to scout first, NE warrior seems legit. Although, Is the hill NW also a plains hill? Look like coast 1SE of that hill (from screenie) might be worth putting warrior up there instead ?


    Nvm, downloaded the file, Nates's hill is the same NW hill I mentioned, NE hill is grassland, I'm a fool :p Consider me 100% behind Nate's opening ^^
     
  6. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    to 125 bc (normal speed, immortal difficulty)
    Spoiler :


    This start seems slow, but then again I'm playing toku with no luxury resources, so i'm not sure what I expected. I ended up building the great lighthouse, then attacking brennus with catapults plus copper units. Up to 9 cities... 6 self-founded, 3 I took from brennus... so far, and i've got a galley headed for that northeastern island spot, so i'll have that settled in a few turns too.

    issabella is running away in the score somehow, so i converted to buddhism to get on her good side. Teching towards civil service. This isn't going to be the best bureau cap but i've got a few cottages at least and an academy up (was 50/50 chance of great merchant... got great scientist...)

    I don't think i can beat issy with this army. I'll probably try to tech towards civil service and machinery and take her down with samurais.

    Tech order:

    Mining, Sailing, Bronze Working, Masonry, Agriculture, Pottery, Writing, Hunting, Math, edit: and construction, currency, priesthood, code of laws.

    Traded for AH, Mysticism, meditation, Archery, Alphabet, Iron Working, and calendar.

    Now working on civil service. Going to get the bureau cap up then go for samurais.

    Build order in cap:

    Workboat, grow to size 2, worker, then grow to size 3, settler, grow to size 5, settler, great lighthouse, galley, settler, library

    Declared war on brennus 450bc with around 10 axes/spears and 8 catapults. War is going OK, but he has a couple of hill cities and i don't know where his metal is (i really should have scouted him better... i always forget to send out enough explorers, haha)



     
  7. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Immortal NHNE normal speed

    Spoiler :
    My game went similar to nate24. Exept I tried to starv brennus, and ended up beeing slapped around by him. He refused to make peace after I stole his worker and had harrased him with some chariots. Suddenly I see a bunch of metal units out of no where heading for the city I settled close to the pigs! I must really not have paid attention.. I had to emergency tech archery! First time I ever have been glad to be protective!

    Sadly I still lost my city! And any good will towards him.. God damn unreasonable Brennus!

    Went HA.. got my city back! Then made peace.. got elphants.. catas.. had a slow war vs brennus, with Isabell as a ally.

    Ended up moving my cap to brennus cap.. it already had an academy.. and i got a Great Ligthouse merchent.. That city had really nice growth and cottageland. Ended up having a really decent buro cap!

    But was out teched by Isabell.. so yeah... We are in the later ares of the game now.. Well see if i can get something good going.

    (c
     
  8. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Immortal, NHNE normal speed.

    To 500BC

    Spoiler :
    I took a different techpath than Nate, going GLH didn't immediately occur to me. Instead I went directly for a workboat into worker, then hunting and pottery into BW and then writing.
    Took the Copper site early, and built a barracks there and in the capital.
    Also settled the nearby corn spot as a third city.

    Chopped a library, selfteched math and bulbed Alphabet.

    Chop chop chop chop and slammed into Brennus 825 BC with 20 Axemen, many of which had double promotions :D
    Sweeped straight through his capital and his secondary site, using research builds and loot gold to limp to currency. Then turned back to attack his last two cities up north.

    Looks like it's going well, but that little fist from Isabella got me worried a bit :sad:
    Will also be interesting to see how I will fare compared to Nate at 125BC; I basically have no economy to speak off, but Bibracte looks like a sweet Bureau cap if I move my palace there later.


     
  9. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Couldn't resist, played on till 125 BC to match Nate's date. I was curious how the 'no GLH' would stack up.

    Spoiler :
    Hehe, it's close, I'm ahead on developed cities by a bit (Tolosa and Vienne are about to pop their borders), at parity with the beakers, but behind on GP; Ill probably cap out at 11/13 cities, depending on wether I will settle those 2 islands now without GLH.


     
  10. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    Spoiler 125BC status :

    Kudos to those who managed the Lighthouse and looking forward to Takesitez's economy without it in 50 or so turns, but you have a lot of land, so should be good. :)
     
  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Agree with this.
     
  12. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Spoiler :

    Screw Samurai, welcome to the automated cottage economy ! Taj in 6 turns for the big Civic switch :cool:



    Missed the MOM by a hair :(, 0 golden ages so far. Also missed the GL, still got 4 scientists for an academy in Bibracte and 2 bulbs into Edu + 1 into Lib
     
  13. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    I'm surprised this is the consensus. Is settling a ph that much more powerful than two guaranteed food resources, even though one is weak?
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ph bonus is nice an I will almost always take that option if it makes for a good city, plus in this case it helps you lose some sea tiles. faster worker, faster wb will pay off

    settling on rice is highly dependent on a food resource, a good one like grass pigs, up there, otherwise it would not make sense to settle on that tile blindly.

    definitely agree with warrior 1NE as SiPH already present a pretty good settling option.
     
  15. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Not sure here, Ph is not a super move in this case imo without scouting.
    That's quiet some forests moving outside borders, if they are not replaced with something good.
    & the new position might block some city spots, SiP is rather neutral on that.
     
  16. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

    Joined:
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    1901 Space Victory.

    Spoiler :
    So I libbed Democracy after my axe-rush and built the Taj to switch into a rep +Bureau + mercantilism + emancipation style, to allow all my cottages to mature a bit faster, ran another golden age after I got Communism to go full out war economy to take on Isabella at more or less tech parity. She didn't put up much of a fight.
    Now in possession of the MOM in Madrid, I ran another golden age to go into the endgame civics, and used my leftover army to cap Genghis and Peter. I then decided that I had had enough of the slow warring, didn't feel like watching alot of nuke animations so just sat on my bum and pressed end turn alot.
    Victoria tried nuking me after my ship launched, but yeah, that didn't do much...

    Probably 1700s domination should've been easy to do from the lib position, but I lost patience :p

    Spoiler :




    Thanks for the map !
     
  17. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    nice one, even Toku can tech :)
     
  18. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    to turn 144 (680 ad)
    Spoiler :


    Invasion attempt #2 is ready. (The first time I tried this i f'd it up beyond belief so i reloaded because i want to do justice in this game to toku's UU. Attacking with more units this time and a couple turns later.)

    I didn't bother with engineering. Toku starts fishing so its almost impossible to get it on time, since you can't bulb it. I ended up having to self-tech machinery and metal casting because izzy got to "We fear you are becoming too advanced" and nobody else had the techs... But from the first botched invasion, i know that i CAN take castle cities... samurai's actually have good odds vs longbows in castles, even at 100% def, as long as you suicide a half-dozen cats first. And Bombarding castles is probably a waste of time if you don't have 20 cats...

    Izzy is way way ahead in techs. She has like a million gems. She built 10 wonders or so and fortunately doesn't have gunpowder yet but she's going to hit liberalism soon, unless i can shut her down with this invasion force...

    So here we are, ready to declare war again:

    My army consists of:
    20 samurai's... including
    10 with 5 unspent exp (lead by a great general. Will probably give them all city raider II)
    4 with 3 unspent exp
    2 combat IVs
    2 combat IIIs
    2 combat II / Shock 1

    18 catapults, including
    3x CR III catapults (lead by a great general -- I made four of these in the prev war, but one died to a 70% roll, so there are 3 left)
    The rest are mostly CR I or 3 exp unpromoted.

    1 crossbowman

    5 axemen
    including a combat III medic

    1 spearman
    Combat IV.

    2 chariots

    for 47 units total.



    So let's get this started.



    turn 146 (720 ad)


    Spoiler :

    BATTLE OF CORDOVA:
    Bombarded city defenses to zero

    ROUNDS:

    LOSS: Catapult (CR I) vs Longbow (CG 1). Odds: 8%
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Crossbow (Shock, 5.5 hp). Odds: 78.8%
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Longbow (CG 1, 5.5 hp). Odds: 83.8%
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Mace (7.4 hp, freshly whipped). Odds: 98.9%
    Victory: Samurai (C IV) vs Longbow (CG 1, 3.3 hp). Odds: 99.6%

    Garrison left behind: The spearman, a combat I axe, and the wounded C IV samurai



    turn 150: (760 ad)

    Spoiler :


    THE BATTLE OF MADRID:

    pre-battle: The apostolic palace was built in seville. This is annoying. I think i can take the defy unhappiness though, there aren't too many buddhist cities and many of my buddhist cities have multiple religions.

    I lost my crossbow, since i sent it towards a hill near Seville to see if there were a lot of defenders in that city (there were). It killed a horse archer then died to another horse archer.

    Meanwhile, in Madrid, Izzy suicided 3 catapults at my stack, not doing a lot of damage. Half my stack arrived sooner, so i bombed the city defenses down a bit last turn too.

    All but 6 cats of my cats bombarded this turn, bringing the city defenses down to 17%.

    ROUNDS:

    LOSS: Catapult (CR I) vs Longbow (CG2). 2.5% odds
    LOSS: Catapult (BARRAGE I) vs Mace (Shock, full HP). 2.2% Odds
    LOSS: Catapult (no promos) vs Mace (Shock, full HP). 2.2% Odds. No damage dealt.
    VICTORY: Catapult (CR III) vs Mace (Shock, full HP). 34.4% Odds. Catapult withdrew.
    VICTORY: Catapult (CR III) vs Longbow (CG1, 4.4 hp). 72.6% odds. Catapult withdrew
    VICTORY: Catapult (CR III, Great General) vs Maceman (Shock, 7.4 hp). 62.4% odds. Catapult withdrew
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Crossbow (shock, 4.9 hp) 78.8% odds.
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Mace (shock, 5.9 hp) 84.4% odds.
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Crossbow (Shock, 3.8 hp) 92.7% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Horse Archer (C II, 6.0 hp) 98.7% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Mace (C II, 6.0 hp) 96.3% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II) vs Longbow (CG II, 3.3 hp) 98.7% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II, Great General) vs Horse Archer (C II, 4.9 hp) 99.8% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR I) vs Mace (freshly whipped, 6.6 hp) 94.8% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR I) vs Axe (C I, 4.5 hp) 97.9% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR I) vs Mace (C I, 4.8 hp) 99.0% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR I) vs Pike (C I, 5.5 hp) 99.5% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (C III) vs Catapult (B III). 99.7% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (C II, Shock), vs Catapult (B II). 99.0% odds
    VICTORY: Axeman (C III) vs Chariot (C II, 3.5 hp). 95.2% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II, 5.9 hp) vs Trebuchet (CR II) 99.2% odds
    VICTORY: Axeman (C III, Medic) vs Chariot (C I, F I), 96.2% odds
    LOSS: Samurai (CR II, 3.7 hp) vs Mace (Shock, 2.0 hp) 95.7% odds (he just needed 2 more xp for CR III !!!!)
    VICTORY: Samurai (CR II, 3.4 hp) vs Longbow (CG 1, 1.5 hp) 94.1% odds
    VICTORY: Chariot (C I) vs Chariot (Shock, 2.7 hp). 90.1% odds
    VICTORY: Chariot (C I) vs Mace (Shock, 2.0 hp). 91.2% odds
    VICTORY: Samurai (C II, Shock) vs Mace (Shock, 0.5 hp). 99.9% odds

    Saved a fresh C IV samurai purely for defending the city after the battle is over... looks like it'll be needed as there's an elephant there.



    I'm not going to do full write ups for the other cities... I just wanted to give a good feel for how strong samurais are.
     
  19. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    Turn 155:
    Spoiler :


    Took Seville, losing 3 only catapults out of the 6 i "suicided" (lucky rolls!). Issy doesn't have her horses any more and i killed her one knight, so i don't think mopping her up will be any trouble.


    :eek: That's a LOT of wonders.

    the game is probably won unless there's some huge surprise on another continent... I'm going to take a break from this one, haha. ... (My dirty little secret: I hardly ever finish games. I guess i just enjoy the early game better than the late game. )

    anyway, the main thing I wanted to see this game was whether catapult + samurais actually works. It seems to work pretty well, at least on immortal, but you want at least 20 of each. (The first attempt before the reload, I only went with about 10 of each and did not do very well at all -- although I probably would have won eventually, I wanted to do it properly ). Actually, I probably should have gone with 30 of each. With 30 catapults, I could bombard down even a castle city in a reasonable amount of time, and i could also split my army to take multiple cities at once.


    Thoughts: With great generals you can upgrade cats to CR III, which makes them basically trebs... but you only get a few of those to play with, and if you're not lucky they'll die. Otherwise, you need to suicide probably 3-6 cats per city before your samurais will win almost all their battles. But this isn't too bad... i mean cats are still cheaper than trebs. If you lose 4 per city, that's 200 hammers, which is manageable. You'll probably lose a samurai or two, also.

    One advantage of Samurai/cats over trebs which i did not even consider: Experience. If you do the typical "Attack with 10 trebs" then clean up everything at 99% odds, you only get 1 exp per attacker. But attacking with samurais at 80-90% odds, you might lose a couple but you get 2-3 exp per fight. This means more great generals and more CR III samurais. If you can get 6 or 7 samurais to 7 exp, plus a great general, you can use the gg to turn them all into CR III... could probably take down grenadiers with those.

    This also works better if you can trade for feudalism in time for the attack, because the diff between CR I and CR II cats out of the gate is huge. (I wasn't able to this game, although i traded for it after my army was built).

    Other thoughts: I should have built one or two war elephants to counter horse archers/knights. I also probably should have made a medic 3 unit, but i was dumb and i gave my medic axe from the previous war combat promos instead.
     
  20. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Nice demo of the Samurai Nate, very impressive results. I personally never put too much stock into em, but it's clear how at least on Immortal, there is a significant window (up to rifling I guess) where they are very dominant.

    Also here we see a very clear result of the GLH versus my earlier axe-rush: I don't think I would've been able to get a similar mass of troops + machinery + civ service by that time considering my lack of early economy.

    In the end I did manage to get some use out of Toku's traits (agressive is already no slouch for axe rushes), because the early warring gave me a double general heroic epic city so I was spamming CR III cannons and Artillery and triple promotion Riflemen during my war with Isabella which also turned out to be dominant vs her troops at parity. Getting the GLH early on would've allowed that war 500 years earlier though :)
     

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