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NC - 182 - Tokugawa - Japan

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
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    Location:
    UK
    Immortal up to 1000bc.

    Spoiler :

    Went worker, workboat settler.

    Tech AG, Mining, BW, AH. Found horse.

    Worker stole from Brennus. Kept his metal clear of mine. In the end I had 4-5 chariots and he had left his capital with a single archer. So with my huge stack of 2-3 chariots I slammed into his capital taking it.

    I moved on Isabela with 4-5 chariots. She had 1 archer in Seville where she had just completed Oracle. Took city easily. I then caught Madrid with 2 axes. I had 4-5 chariots. She whipped a chariot. Madrid has just fallen.

    I have 6 cities but virtually no economy.

    She has 2 archers in Barcelona. I plan to heal my huge stack and attack the city. She has been spamming mish. She has COl and built a shrine for me in Madrid. Captured Sh too in Madrid.

    Should be pretty easy from here on in. Rubbish start for Toku. Should have 3 holy cities soon. Way behind on techs here but spain has 3 mined gems.
     
  2. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    LOL crazy ^^, nice opening Gumbolt !
     
  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not really crazy.

    Spoiler :


    Spain has always been a religious AI/war monger. In this case she went full religious. Brennus never hooked up his metal. The Ai often empty there cities to let settlers claim new cities.

    I really don't see need for 20 axes on this map. Although they do upgrade nicely to Samurai.
     
  4. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 31, 2016
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    the question is... is this actually better than the typical engi rush ?

    let's compare... Samurais & cats VS Trebs & Crossbows & Pikes & random ancient units

    Advantages Samurais:

    Cheaper core units (70 & 50 vs 80 & 60)
    Better stack defense vs catapults.
    Better stack defense vs longbows and muskets.
    Samurais are likely to become super promoted, which can snowball into a really powerful army.
    Civil Service and Code of Laws are more useful techs than Engineering -- they're more tradeable and they're better for the economy.

    Advantage Trebs:

    more city bombardment for the hammers you invest.
    Better stack defense vs War Elephants, Knights and Horse Archers.
    Can attack a few hundred years sooner if you can bulb engineering.
     
  5. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

    Joined:
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    @gumbolt
    Spoiler :

    today i learned chariot rushes can work on immortal....:lol:
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @ nate

    Spoiler :
    I only captured 3 cities and razed 1.

    No reason chariots can't be effective on immortal. Just more risky. I was actually going for HA.


    Edit
    Spoiler :
    Versus archers they are not so strong. I lost 3 chariots on Barcelona. Hill cities would of been a real pain. Spain has 2 cities left and I am churning 11 gold a turn on 100% tax. Still lacking writing.
     
  7. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

    Joined:
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    @ gumbolt

    Spoiler :
    Probably no need for 20 axemen, part of the NC and even the series I am trying to keep alive is about seeing better players take different approaches and learn from it. My 'crazy' was more intended as an appreciative remark than anything else. I've very often been on a bad Immortal start like this where a chariot rush would've been doomed, cudos to you for making it happen =). I am a very mediocre player, but I consider myself fairly confident on Immortal, the fact that both Nate and others immediately thought of GLH on this opening, and you did a chariot rush, really helps my game, thanks alot everyone :). As an aside, and this is not an attempt to hijack, but I think my IS game is significantly harder, even on immortal, despite the nuts start. I would love you to prove us all wrong, so far everyone still battling with it.
     
  8. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

    Joined:
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    So I'm going to try and go for a more in depth write up, mostly to force me to play slower and think a little more about what I'm doing.

    Emperor, no huts, no events, normal speed

    The first 15
    Spoiler :
    After moving warrior NW I didn't see any compelling reason to move my settler and took a SIP start. Worker first, teching farming for rice and AH to try and find horses. Going to go mining / BW next and I'm assuming I'm going to try and tech to the GLH after that. It seems like the obvious early wonder play because of the lack of riverside tiles and the fact that we're on a penninsula.

    There's plenty of food around. So far I've uncovered 3 dry corns and a pig. So far I've met Brennus and hinduism was discovered somewhere on turn 14. Doesn't seem like a fast start. So far I haven't found any enemy borders so I'm going to focus on settling some land and trying to chop out the glh.


    T28

    Spoiler :
    BW is 8 turns out, WB is 2 turns, size 3 next turn. After the work boat comes the first settler, using my only warrior to spawn bust as best I can. Met Izzy, religions are divided with buddhism to Izzy and hinduism to Brennus.


    Found the horses in the cap, and it looks like we're at risk of getting boxed in by brennus but there's enough food around that a HA rush is an option. If I'm expecting to miss the glh then I could also get more passive hammers from the pigs / corn city north by not settling it coastal.

    Going to finish BW and commit to a plan.
     
  9. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    I had a go at this map a couple of days ago and couldn't play it out. I peacefully over expanded, suffered the economic consequences, and still managed to win the lib race, but then. . .

    Spoiler :
    Good ol' Genghis got frisky and decided to declare. I held my own against his pitiful galley transported keshik half stack, but he bribed Peter, who had caravels and soon thereafter frigates/galleons to wreak havoc on my fishing cities. I was too frustrated after the already annoying economic slog that the early game had been to continue at that point.


    After my first try at this map, the Immortal Student map, and an offline game that all involved frustrating economic stagnation and/or unexpected and unwelcome ai DOWs, I figured it was time for me to play a slower forum game and get some insight from everyone.

    So, here goes. Imm, NH NE, to 2200BC:

    Spoiler :
    Previous map knowledge makes me feel a little icky, but this is about improvement, not game "purity" :p I decided to SiP after settling the PH on my first attempt, just to see how different the two approaches are.

    Agri -> Mining -> BW -> AH to start things off. The worker farmed the rice, mined the PH, and then built a couple sections of road toward my second city site before coming back to chop out a settler once BW was in. The capitol queue went worker -> warrior until growth -> WB -> finish warrior.

    Our scouting warrior hugged the coast and traveled westward, meeting Brennus and discovering our desired second city site with Pigs/FP, but not much production outside of the whip, that will keep Celtic cities from popping up in our face. He also met Isabella and her gobs of gems :eek: while journeying to the far western coast. Little wonder that she founded Buddhism. Brennus founded Hinduism, and I anticipate some heads rolling on our continent. A Russian scout waved to us from the eastern landmass :wavey:

    Additional warriors scouted a bit to the north and found a good looking corn/copper site that can either be settled on a PH one tile off the coast, on the coast with the copper in the second ring, or a little further north for a Pig tile to indirectly offset the distance maintenance. Potential for either a good NE or HE city.

    The capitol chopped/whipped out a settler who successfully settled our desired second city site. Here is where we stand:



    I am thinking that with a minimum of 4 decent coastal cities on our continent and 2 island cities, the Great Lighthouse is a no-brainer. Sailing->Masonry are queued up in our tech order, but the question is whether or not to settle our next city before attempting to build GLH? Thoughts on the dotmap, my decisions so far, or the plan moving forward?

    Edit: I was tempted to tech hunting -> archery next for barb defense and hooking up the ivory. I think it's too much of a delay for the GLH though. Plus, the horse near the capitol should be hooked up in time for a chariot or two to keep us comfortably safe. I am thinking that the pig/FP city we settled by Brennus would make for a nominal NE city since it won't be super productive. Corn/copper city looks good for the HE.
     
  10. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
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    900
    Deity, to 1320BC:

    Spoiler :
    ...when I built the Great Lighthouse (at 4 cities).

    Not much else to say - trying to rescue the economy through a broken wonder. Haven't got Writing but Peter and Izzy have opened borders with me. Plan: Writing - Maths - Construction and take it out on Brennus.
     
  11. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,169
    Location:
    Raleigh
    Immortal to winning position:

    Spoiler :
    I played this game fast and easy last night. I was going to go slow and do a thorough write-up, but then, ya know, I didn't.

    I settled in place and researched mining -> BW -> sailing -> masonry -> agri -> AH while building workboat (plains forest) -> worker (still at size 1) -> settler (chop) -> worker (chop) -> warrior -> warrior -> lighthouse (whip) -> GLH (chops). Then settled cities 3-9 rapidly. I ended up with 6 on the main continent and 3 on the 3 different nearby islands. It's so nice when those offshore islands have food resources, which they all did. The one due south and the northeast one made pretty superb early cities. I didn't build the Colossus, although looking back I should have.

    With 9 cities at like 500 BC the game was pretty straightforward. Built up a medieval army (one of my favs) and took out Brennus and Izzy with trebs, cats, samurai, elephants, pikes, and xbows. The economy crashed a bit (all the way). But with ~40 cities (no capping for me cuz I was having fun) the game will be easy enough to win. Medieval war is no longer possible. But fighters + carriers + marines + infantry and the game will finish easily around ~1700 AD I'd guess.

    I think I'll play the game again carefully. Either I'll play it again on Immortal and try to win it with the medieval army. Making a more concerted effort to capitulate quickly and research Astro this path is viable and those 1000 AD continents conquest wins are very satisfying. Alternatively I'll try it on Deity where I'll again go to trebs + samurai.


    @nate46

    Spoiler :
    To help with your scouting issues, note that you can build a spy or three at home, even during the middle of the war, and get an idea of his empire that way. Scouting pre-war is generally better. But don't underestimate the value that a few spies built and deployed during the war can have.

    I'm guessing that you're building the granary in Kyoto a bit too late. Obviously I'm not positive, especially if you're not whipping. I would have been inclined to build the granary before the galley + settler and then 3-whip out the settler after growing on the galley. Or something along those lines.

    Why the Barracks in Satsuma? I'd say leave it un-built for now and then build it before your next war with Izzy. Right now, spies or other military units would be more useful.

    ...

    Post #18

    Great war. Looks like a lovely little collection of units you've got there. Impressive.

    Nice note about attacking with worse odds to earn more experience.




    @Imploding

    Spoiler :
    Good job working through the early frustration. If you're going to try and starve Brennus it's helpful to have either a woodsman 2 warrior or a plan for getting advanced units. Given that he wasn't declaring peace, I think you might have tried to get more chariots in to his territory sooner. Wait until he sends out the settler party and then snipe his capital. This is a great part of the game that's pretty easy to play multiple times trying different strategies.


    @Takesitez

    Spoiler :
    A good old-fashioned axe rush. I think the trade-off is indeed a fairly close one. 10 axes instead of GLH works out in this case because you can take out Brennus and his land is very good. Nice to see somebody go for a non-GLH game. That said, if my capital is coastal and it looks like my next three cities will also be coastal I almost always build the GLH.

    Cottage spam is super fun. Research up to the Kremlin and then rush build whatever you'd like for super cheap! ... Or go space. Either way works. Nice win.


    @Gumbolt

    Spoiler :
    A chariot rush didn't even occur to me. Very well done. I think I'll try it. :)


    @bdubbs

    Spoiler :
    Completely agree with your motivation. The write-ups make me play way better as well. I'm excited to read your write-up!

    I also settled in place. Indeed, an obvious wonder. Agree there.

    I disagree with researching Agriculture first. I don't think the dry rice alone is worth it. I left it for a little later myself and teched to BW immediately for chopping. Growth isn't the constraint in this capital with the fish tile. I'm not sure of this though. Maybe somebody can do some math and check for us? Or we'll just see what the better players do. :p.

    You're not as boxed in as you think you are given the surrounding islands. Get out a workboat to explore the viability of settling these instead of DOWing Brennus earrly.


    @MeowZeDung

    Spoiler :
    Don't feel icky. There's HOF games for no reload no replay games. This is all about getting better and replaying the same spot several times is the best way to do it.

    Again, not sure about agri first. But I like the settling decision. I put down by second city by the corn and then the third city up by the pigs. But this way also works okay. You don't need that road, though, if you get sailing. Use the worker turns for chopping instead.

    GLH is indeed a no brainer. The dotmap looksk really good. Settling city 3 before the GLH is fine. Use the pigs in city 2 to build the settler while chopping out the GLH in the capital.


    @Georgjorge

    Spoiler :
    Did you SIP or PH? Agri first?
     
  12. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Realized I put myself behind pretty fast with poor tech choice so I restarted, will continue from where I left off.

    T27
    Spoiler :
    Decided to resettle to the ph. I liked the idea after I became aware of it because it lets you squeeze one more city to the right and keeps the city on the closest corn to the west closer to the cap.

    Question for those of you who already played the ph settle, did you decide to settle on the rice? That city could never take heavy whipping regardless of the bonus from a farm. It has enough passive hammers to slow build a few infrastructure and 4 forests for chopping. The city seems like it would return the most value from letting it grow and work cottages

    Tech Path: mining, sailing, bw (1t away)
    Build order: wb, worker, warrior, warrior to size 3, settler (9t away)

    Worked the ele for wb to get the 2f 1h 1c not sure if that was the optimal tile, so please point it out to me if i missed it. Switched to fish for the worker.

    Worker put a mine on a grass hill and has started to build the road for my settler, planning to settle 1NE of the corn, the only tile that puts corn in the first ring seems like an obvious choice.


    T50

    wait a second, I'm at turn 50 and I'm the only civ with 2 cities out of the ones I've met, isn't that kind of weird for emp?

    An overlay of the land with dotmapping

    Spoiler :
    I decided to take hunting and improve the ivory after the corn, followed by a cottage. The only good thing about osaka right now is that food tile so I've been using it to churn out workers for now. The second worker has pre chopped 1 forest and is going to road up to my next ph city. I plan to use the cottage worker to continue pre chopping.


    Spoiler :
    I've gotten a hint that I should probably be keeping out for the opportunity to settle islands so I will probably let brennus take the land where the blue city is marked, but I do feel like I should take the pigs north of the corn, the utter lack of hills or another resource makes the spot look kinda icky though


    basic plan
    Spoiler :
    finish the settler and chop out the glh, followed by a granary in kyoto. Start letting osaka grow after the next worker while putting hammers towards a granary which will have to be chopped or whipped look to expand by sea. Stay out of war until samurai / trebs.


    Can't say I'm excited about my prospects in this game
    Spoiler :
    I suck at moving units around efficiently on landlocked maps. Needing to build naval units and transport armies with galleys sounds awful.
     
  13. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    IMM to 1200 B.C:

    Spoiler :
    I teched sailing -> masonry -> most of pottery this round. I built a chariot in the capitol after putting 24 hammers into a lighthouse so that I could preserve the 2 pop whip until the turn before masonry was in, and one pop-whipped another chariot from my second city while the worker was still farming the fp. This gave me plenty of barb protection/fogbusting and gives me some garrison units. Plus, as you'll see, the barbs settled a lovely northern city that I'd love to nab with said chariots.

    The two workers that hooked up the horse immediately pre-chopped in preparation for masonry. The two-pop lighthouse whip plus five forest chops and another two pop whip have quickly completed the Great Lighthouse for the next turn. City #2 chopped two forests for my second settler.

    After scouting all of the available land north of us, I have altered the dotmap a bit. I am going to settle the corn/copper site 2N of where I originally planned since a pig only site north of it would have no real production until workshops. I would like to take the barb city that settled the fish/deer/sheep before Brennus does as it would make a decent enough NE site. He just settled the marble city, so I think I can take the barb city before him with four chariots, maybe five. Is it worth switching current city queues to put overflow into two or three chariots next, or can I afford to wait a few more turns and slow build them?







    Plan for next turnset:
    -Settle corn/copper/pig city
    -Take barb city
    -Finish pottery for granaries and tech writing to build libraries, then run scientists in pig/fp city
    -settle corn city W of capitol
    -settle one or both island cities
    -perhaps settle the central PH city which could be decent for production with farms and ph mines
    -???
    -Profit from GLH

    This would put me at 8 cities, 7 of them coastal for GLH trade routes. If I beeline currency, my economy should be strong enough to win the lib race and break out with cuirrasiers assuming I can get my hands on some iron. Would the detour to aesthetics be better for the tech trades?
     
  14. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    Mar 26, 2007
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    @MeowZeDung
    Spoiler :

    You gave the AI barb archery tech, right ? then you should be ok for a bit, I wouldn't wait too long though.

    That seems to be the name of the game for this map :D

    My decision on this usually depends on 1) GLib ? 2) do the/enough AIs trade with me and what. Can I get to friendly with 1 or 2.

     
  15. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    @Mizar

    Spoiler :
    Good points. Well, with no marble or abundance of forests, and lackluster trade partners, I guess I'd be better off just going maths -> partial alpha-> trade maths for alpha -> currency -> onwards toward lib. Aesthetics is on the way to music though. The GA and pre-req for a MilTra lib could tip the scales.
     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Croatia
    Playing this one on Deity and went all the way to 1300AD.
    Spoiler :
    Brennus was wiped out long time ago and now Izzy bent too. Space race or conquest, that is the question.


    But I skipped GLH as real Toku wouldn't appreciate all those trade routes!

    Hopefully, some write-up will come out of this.

    Spoiler :

    @Meow

    Meh production city needs Corn!

    @bdubbs

    You don't want to settle on top the rice! That is your only food for that city and it is not under the jungle! After Civil service it'll be 5:food: resource. I f you had some Fish with that Rice, it would be okay.

    @Gummy

    You want Courthouses, don't ya? :D
    You got some nice land Madrid. Did you get any wonder?

    @nate

    Real Toku play. I haven't found love for Samurai with elephants so close.

     
  17. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    @Takesitez

    Spoiler :
    Really nice game. What puzzles me is how come that you didn't come up ahead even more. Also, you are researching Future Tech 3 which means that you either have very low hammer cities and slow SS Engines, or that your tech order is wrong (researching Fusion last instead of Composites and Ecology).
     
  18. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    @ Shakabrade

    Spoiler :
    Thanks, well the answer is that I'm even worse at the lategame than I am at the early game :D I beelined Medicine for Sushi, then ended up beelining into Genetics after Assembly line before I even went to rocketry, in order to get the +3 health to offset my Shale plants + factories, and set up laboratories. Only then did I go up the north part of the tree. And yes I did Fusion last, I have no idea what the optimal path for space actually is, hammers weren't a true problem though, I had 2 cities that could do the big parts in 8 ish turns, and a buch of others that could handle the small ones at a rate of 10 turns.
     
  19. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    900
    Regarding Space victories: the usual plan is to go for the techs that enable the most expensive parts (SS Engines - Fusion) first. The reason is that by that time you often have 20+ cities and enough of them can finish the small parts (from Ecology or Composites) in 5-6 turns, but larger parts like the Engines will take 8-9 turns even in your big production cities, which you have only two or three of.

    I also often go for Superconductors rather early as you want research labs in almost all your cities. You want them in commerce cities to speed up techs and in hammer cities to speed up spaceship parts.
     
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not had a chance to play this on.

    Spoiler :
    My attack has ground to a halt as chariots vs hill cities is a big gamble.

    I do have some decent wonders here and a shrine. I have not really managed the empire that well.
     

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