[BTS] NC 211 - Augustus of Rome

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fish Man, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    You've all waited far too long for this, so without further ado, I present to you - NC 211, Augustus of Rome!

    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    We last played Augustus in NC CXLI, way back in 2014. It's now time to sharpen your gladiī and have another go at the Romans! Rome starts with fishing and mining, a decent food tech and the all-important prereq to BW. Not the best but certainly not the worst.

    Augustus is imperialistic and industrious, a diverse trait combo that allows for a great deal of applications. IMP means much faster settlers, which is handy in the crucial initial expansion phase of the game, particularly lending itself to easy 2-pop settler whips and also allowing for cheaper city liberations/gifts in case you need to appease a crazy warmonger like Monty nearby. On the flip side, rapid GG generation allows things like extremely early supermedics, settling one in your city to get easy level 2 units, or even attaching one to some early rushers (cough cough praets) to get 4 or 5 CR3 juggernauts to plow through axes and archers. IND, on the other hand, is insanely useful for both building critical game-changing wonders, and for failgolding. And it helps make whips for one of the most important buildings in the game - forges - far easier.

    The UB, the forum, is a market that gives +25% GP generation in a city that it's built. Good for generating GMs quickly, I've found - as it comes with 2 merchant slots, as a market does. Nothing too spectacular, though.

    The UU, the praetorian, is among one of the most fun and powerful in the game. Praets are a whopping 8:strength: instead of 6:strength: from the normal swordsman, which is the greatest % strength bonus conferred by any land-based UU (33% stronger), and increasing their odds an order of magnitude against most defenders of their era. With enough numbers and support they can handily take on medieval units and even rifles. If you have iron, you won't want to miss out on these! ;)

    And the start:

    Spoiler :

    20190730142319_1.jpg


    Spoiler: map details

    Spoiler :

    Hemispheres, 2 continents, low sea level, 6 AIs. No other edits.

    Specifics:
    Spoiler :

    You have iron, marble, and stone nearby! Perfect for using this leader to his fullest extent.


    The narrative and challenge:
    Spoiler :

    rtw-mussolini.jpg
    Mussolini's revenge! To escape execution, Mussolini has evaded capture and used the secret time-travel technology he developed in the waning days of WWII to go all the way back to prehistoric times. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to conquer the world and do it as fast as possible! Dom or conquest wins are both accepted. Turn 250 on normal speed is great if you can make it, but for a real challenge try t200 domination/conquest (I'm not even sure if that's possible on deity...). The Americans MUST be eliminated completely to pay for what they've done, but all other civs can be vassaled. And to relive the glory of Rome, you must take out at least one civ (vassal or kill) with nothing but praets!

    *Note - this is in no way an endorsement of fascism or Nazis. At the risk of sounding too political, though this statement shouldn't really be controversial: I am staunchly anti-fascist and anti-racist, as I think should be the case for everyone.



    And now - let the games begin!
     

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    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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  2. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Changing the subject completely. Might try this later. :)
     
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  3. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    was referring specifically to the challenge condition, which has you specifically RPing as Mussolini...just wanted to clear some things up
     
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Thoughts on map. Low sea level ackkk.

    Spoiler Thoughts on map general :

    The curse of low sea level. Be extremely hard to play this on deity. The AI just have way too much land. I could leave my neighbours to it and they could probably settle 15+ cities. Maybe more. There could 45-60 cities on my continent. Past 1AD and a large chunk of land is not even settled.

    You really want 8 Ai on low sea level. Average AI here will have 10-12+ cities. If one suddenly starts winning wars you could face a monster on the other side of the map.



    Spoiler Thoughts on objectives :

    Finishing this by T200 seems a huge ask unless you play on lower levels. T250 could also be tough due to amount of land and number of cities each AI will have.

    Taking out an Ai with Praet more than possible.
     
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  5. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    I did t198 space once, although that was in HoF conditions. But t200 conquest/domination must be doable as long as you have early access to iron.
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not sure I will complete this. Lot of effort for little reward. Map is winnable.

    @Anysense. Give it a try. Maybe an early praet rush will work.
     
  7. Olafeson

    Olafeson Prince

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    @Fish Man

    thanks for the game, i will start NC 211 soon, just want to finish my current game. I personally don t mind to play as one of the axis members this time. I did play as Stalin, Churchill and De gaulle aswell, without feeling connected in any way to these historical persons and their poltical views.

    I just wonder why you did not connect any role play about fishing and sea food to this game. I expected more in this regard my dear fishman or Undefeatable.:) If not you, who else would be better suited for such a mini roleplay challenge;)?

    That being said, my only criticism will be that i think Mussolinis should rather keep on focusing on eliminating the greece Civ instead of the americans. Since as far as i know, the only relevant war of agression, that Italy did during WW 2 was their attack against the greeks.

    But maybe i am just a historical dumb dumb in this regard, since most of my information about this topic came from the movie "Corellis Mandoline" with good ol Nicolas Cage:cool: and beautiful Penelope Cruz:love:.
     
  8. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    Ethiopians could have some big word to talk with Mussolini :D
     
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  9. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I personally don't mind if I play Mussolini or Stalin or whoever. We tend to believe that these guys have been more cruel than others as the history is quite recent and better documented. But who knows, maybe Peter the Great or Julius C. have been even more cruel and life-loathing? :) It's just a game and I agree that the attitude in real life should be against any kind of fascism and similar.
     
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  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Anyone actually playing this game? Don't let my review put you off. Rise to the challenge of a pure praet rush.
     
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  11. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    I am officially the worst player.

    Spoiler :


    edit: ok maybe not (??) was able to overflow whip the hammers in to finish faster than I thought

    Spoiler :
    also someone oracle popped divine right in 490 BC



    Report up to 500 AD, Noble difficulty, Marathon speed

    Spoiler :

    4000 - Settle in place

    3190 - Wang Kon founds Hinduism

    3115 - Adopt slavery

    2680 - Found Antium south, on floodplain/stone/crab site

    2210 - Found Cumae northwest, on corn & copper

    2050 - Stonehenge somewhere else

    1980 - Declare war on Lincoln with Axeman

    1970 - Raze New York

    1920 - Cease fire after a worker snipe

    1870 - Wang Kong builds Temple of Artemis (LOL)

    1860 - Iron Working! Iron near Rome... thinking_emoji.gif

    1760 - Re-declare war on Lincoln with 5 Axemen

    1730 - Raze Washington, too far away to keep. At this point I realize that I need Astronomy to do more, so I buckle in for a longer haul than I thought. I switch over to economic mode.

    1700 - Masonry

    1480 - Invade Wang Kong with 2 Praetorians and 7 Axemen. Start Great Wall at some point, because of the Forbidden North.

    1450 - Capture Seoul - Hindu holy city and Temple of Artmeis (o ya 100% trade boost BABY)

    1430 - Raze Pyongyang, Wang Kong eliminated.

    1370 - Finish Great Wall (without stone, like a moron). Wanted to be able to focus more on the economy than worry about fog busting.

    1330 - Pottery (lol)

    1210 - Capture barb city on grassland near copper and pigs and corn. Because production hub, building wonders in 15 turns on MARATHON.

    1180 - Found Neapolis near corn in central area. Trying to build culture bridge to Seoul for safer worker travel.

    0950 - Found Ravenna on the floodplains in the river. Has health problems, but runs specialists and cottages.

    0920 - Convert to Hinduism because it spread to Cumae, which was 1 over happiness cap. I whipped 3 Axemen from this city thousands of years ago and the sodders are STILL mad.

    0660 - Pyramids in Antium. Antium was a horrible site to build the pyramids, but I was able to get two chops in and whipped some Axemen and Spearmen to overflow build it in 50 turns.

    0650 - Representation. Look, I needed the three extra beakers from the Priest specialist in Seoul from the Temple of Artemis, ok?

    0490 - Oracle far away, Islam founded. Hm, I wonder who that could POSSIBLY be...

    0240 - Calendar

    0170 - Great Scientist in Seoul. I build an Academy in Seoul for the short term science boost. Gold stable beakers per turn are 115, which is on par for me at this point.

    0090 - Found Arrentium near Horses south of Korean land. I have 8 cities now, which is above normal for me at this point.

    0001 - Nothing happens, except the calendar letters flipped.

    0110 - Finished Museum of Maussollos. Intend to use the bonus time to flip over to Caste System, Bureaucracy, and Pacifism at the same time. The tech times and Great People points are just lining up.

    0300 - Code of Laws. Super late, not sure why.

    0390 - Hanging Gardens. Big health problems for me on this map, little seafood and non-diverse land crops. Also, I had nothing better to build except workers and I have a bunch already. Start rolling over to producing more military units, economy stable at 60% science commerce ratio. F2 says I have 140 total commerce. 31 in Rome, 25 in Seoul, and around 20 in most of my other cities. River cottages baybee. I should probably farm them because I am running Representation, but I am feeling way too lazy to micromanage specialists.

    0440 - Civil Service. Philosophy on deck with 14 turns.

    0490 - Great Scientist in Rome. Was hoping it would be a Great Spy so I wouldn't feel bad burning him, but I need a Golden Age to swap civics. Switching all three - Barbarism, Slavery, and Paganism - will cost me five turns on marathon. A golden age lasts 15 turns, so I can pop one now and still have time to switch to pacifism in 11 turns. I can pop the Golden Age now, and swap to Bureaucracy and Caste System, then swap again to Pacifism in 10 turns when Philosophy finishes.

    0500 - Economy stable at 173 beakers per turn, not in Golden Age yet.


    Edit (2): up to 1100 AD:

    Spoiler :

    0500 - Golden Age begun.

    0510 - Adopt Caste System, Bureaucracy. (I forgot to, hence the 1 turn delay)

    0515 - Great Lighthouse faraway.

    0530 - Philosophy.

    0535 - Adopt Pacifism. (I forgot again)

    0545 - Mediolanum founded on sheep and copper in the south - this ends up being a mistake and the city contributes nothing to production or commerce for the rest of the game.

    0600 - Optics, working Forge in Cumae and start Caravel two turns later. It was at this point that I realized Cumae was my ONLY coastal city (except Mediolanum, which was size 2). This ends up being a problem later, so I rush to plonk workshops down on the plains tiles in the city. It is not a high production area.

    0635 - Great Prophet in Seoul - I build the Hindu "give me money" building, brings in 15 gold per turn after modifiers.

    0645 - I raze a barbarian city and steal 3 workers.

    0655 - Statue of Zeus faraway.

    0720 - Shwedagon Paya faraway.

    0735 - I meet Darius and trade him Code of Laws for Archery and Alphabet. This ends up being kind of dumb on my part but I needed Alphabet.

    0740 - I meet Bismark. Lord have mercy on this poor sod. Crap land, crap leader. He's around 12 techs behind everyone, so I give him a couple techs like Masonry and Writing... in 700 AD. I suck up to Bismark pretty hard, and start spreading Hinduism to his cities.

    0740 - Astronomy finishes. At this point, I realize that the other AI are teching toward Fuedalism and the window of opportunity for using my Praetorian and Catapult army is narrowing. I take a good look at the tech tree and realize I can slingshot Rifling with Liberalism in about 70 turns. No AI is even close to Liberalism, most don't even have Philosophy.

    0750 - I meet Hatsheput and Perciles. No one on this island is particularly scary, except maybe Darius if I let him get ahead, but everyone is firmly stuck in the stone age. No one has Compass and only Darius even had Metal Casting.

    0770 - Paper.

    0800 - Bismark converts to Hinduism. This ends up being pretty good in the long run.

    0810 - Hatshepsut completes the Great Library. I get about 400 fail gold from this. Thanks!

    0815 - I get a Great Artist from Music. I settle him in Seoul to help my economy out a little bit.

    0820 - Great Scientist, bulbs 6000 beakers worth of Education for me. This was critical for my Rifling slingshot.

    0835 - Education.

    0870 - Darius finishes Feudalism. I knew I was going to invade him first and this stung. I only had 2 Galleons at this point and I was slowly shuttling my Praetorian army to Bismark's land. Only having 1 coastal city really crippled me, and I didn't notice until this point.

    0895 - Printing Press. I think I gained over 100 commerce here. Huge economic boost that pushed me over 500 beakers per turn. At this point I am finishing technologies at 6-8 turns each on Marathon, which is around 2-3 turns on Normal. My science never goes higher than this, though, because my ramp up in units is causing me gold drain.

    0975 - Great Scientist again, I settled. I am not going to research Scientific Method this game, so the bulb would have been useless.

    0980 - Banking.

    0990 - Declare on Darius. I have 14 Catapults, 1 Crossbow, and 17 Praetorians, with more waiting for shipment from the homeland. I initially attacked from the north end of Darius's land and swept south through Persepolis to Susa, which is near Hatshepsut's land and the floodplains.

    0995 - Raze some crap city.

    1005 - Capture Gordium. Darius revolts from Vassalage to Bureaucracy, meaning he can't whip Longbowmen for 2 turns. Great job, idiot.

    1020 - Capture Ecbatana, which is a city in the jungle on the coast, completely unimproved. I keep it because its on a grassland river and bring 9 workers over to start terraforming.

    1052 - Great General in Rome. I settle him because I'm lazy and he gives me beakers.

    1035 - Raze another crap city bordering Pericles's land.

    1040 - Replaceable Parts. I start lumbermilling my land. It's on, baby.

    1055 - Darius finishes the Colossus in Susa. Darius, what the heck?? I'm trouncing you militarily and you're over here building wonders for me?

    1065 - Pasargadae captured.

    1080 - Persepolis captured and I finish Gunpowder and start Liberalism.

    1095 - Bismark voluntarily becomes my vassal.

    1100 - Susa captured. Darius capitulates and gives me Monotheism and some gold. War Weariness was driving me crazy, I had 8 angry faces in all my cities. Turns out Darius had the Statue of Zeus. In Susa, which is mine now. Along with the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse. Problem is I have four coastal cities at this point, so they don't really help me much. Well, at least I didn't pay for them.

    1105 - I get my first Domination threshold message - 47% of global population is mine. I intend to vassalize Hatsheput and then Pericles. I lost quite a bit this war - 9 Catapults, 2 Crossbows, 7 Praetorian. I didn't worry about it, I just traded lives for time. I only have 79 turns left at this point to finish in the 600 turn challenge limit.

    Here's the status of the other continent. I still haven't settled my own continent, so I guess I'm going for a conquest victory at this point. I see what Gumbolt means about the low sea level. My continent was huge for 3 civilizations.

    Notice the 3000 gold? Yeah we're gonna have City Raider 3 Riflemen in about 7 turns.


    bonus:

    Spoiler :


    finale @ 1290 AD:

    Spoiler :
    Pretty underwhelming victory. I remember why I play with vassal states off, now. The AI just offered capitulation whenever I captured several cities.

    This is as far as I got with Hatshepsut.


    And Pericles gave up after 2 cities.


    Nice?


    Power graph



    Hmmm...


    Should have played on Monarch. Or Emperor. At the end all of the AI were nearly two era behind me in technology.

    Vis a vis challenge:

    Spoiler :
    Praetorians are incredibly strong: I was able to steamroll Darius with them against City Garrison 1 & 2 Longbowmen. After bombarding the defense of his cities down, my naked Praetorians still had a 60% chance to win, 75% with City Raider 1. And they only cost 90 hammers on marathon. Macemen cost 140 and all you gain is a bonus against Melee units and a cheaper upgrade to Riflemen. Honestly, Rome is super powerful even before considering any of its potential leader traits.

    The forum is OK, but since it came late in the run and around the same time I switched into Pacifism (oh the irony), I don't think it had any effect. I popped 7 Great People this game (1 Merchant, 1 Prophet, and 5 Scientists).

    I did get 3 Great Generals, thanks to Imperalist. And I did grab the wonders I wanted - the Great Wall and Pyramids. Seoul had 80 Science by 1 AD and accounted for nearly 40% of my science income during the tech-up phase to Astronomy. At one point I think I had 9 scientists with 3 settled Great Scientists and an Academy. Wasn't able to get Oxford.

    I finished on turn 558 which normalises to 186. Destroyed the capitalist pigs with Axemen first thing, and then sent my Praetorians to Wang Kon next. The Axemen stood in wait in case Wang Kon had any of his own, but it was just Archers.

    Deus Nobiscum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Congrats on the win but maybe Monarch or higher would of been a better challenge. ;)

    Spoiler Thoughts :

    To be fair you get 50% bonus on wonders even without the stone. Great if you can get fail gold on this map.

    On Noble Ai start with warrior. So a warrior/axe rush on marathan speed should of been possible.

    I settled on the stone for my second city. Its on the river so saves road and quarry. River connects directly to Rome.

    On immortal Koreans spams metal units and builds brick walls early on. One of the reasons a praet only rush would be tough. He was super fast to machinery too. Protective archer which are CG3 can be annoying too.

    Praet with catapults would of worked. I felt this went against the quest given on this map. Distance was the main issue for me. The land between Korea and Rome is not great. There is a 4 tile buffer with pretty much no resources. Then you have a 10-12 tile trek to reach the Ai which requires roads.

    3 great generals seems low. I guess Noble Ai build much less units.If your going conquest no need for Oxford. Forum has less use. Maybe in capital but you wanted the resources to make it's happiness work.

    Divine Rights Oracle is always nice to see on Noble by an AI. That seems quite impressive for them to delay it that late.
     
  13. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    :)

    Spoiler :
    Failgold was really good - I don't remember the exact wonder, but I had one in the Medieval age with 1 turn left that I was iffy about completing, and someone else built it and gave me 719 gold.

    On stone was a much better city site, but I was planning on founding a cheesy circle of cities and Praet rushing the entire continent, which is why Antium and Cumae are so close to Rome. I didn't read the map notes since I prefer playing blind, and did not realize there were two continents.

    Noble AI builds very few units. The "stacks" of doom that my Praetorians shrugged off in battle were 15 maybe 20 units tall, and most of the units suicide attacked Combat 2 + 3 Praeotrians, which is only 2 Great General XP per battle. I also don't usually let the AI vassal me, because I really dislike the mechanic, but I chose to this time in the spirit of the challenge, so the wars - except Darius - were very short.

    I actually haven't played the game since 2011 and just recently picked it up again, so I'm just getting back into step, hence the lower difficulty. The last time I played here was Nobles Club 3.

    Divine Right in 490 was really surprising to me. I had to stop and check to see if Choose Religions was on, because I usually don't see it until the Middle Ages. However, having said that, the other continent was woefully behind in technology. I was surprised that Darius was missing Code of Laws in 700 AD, but all of his cities were small population. I think his AI got choked by Hatshepsut's and Pericles's creative border pops and the jungle to his north.
     
  14. elementoffear

    elementoffear Warlord

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    Hey @Fish Man thanks for the game. I just realized this is up, I suggest posting in the bullpen for those only subscribed to that.
     
  15. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Will do; thanks for the heads up!
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  16. Zavior

    Zavior cIV forever

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    A very quick summary of a monarch/normal playthrough
    Spoiler :

    Rex to 7 cities, rifles + cannons to take over continent, then a peaceful spacerace. No enemies close enough for praets, no horses for cuirs so just went for rifles/cannons. Early on had some problems with barbs, had to whip some warriors for defense. Barbs were the biggest difficulty. Maybe should of played on emp or imm, but wanted a nice relaxing game.
     
  17. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    I've been busy lately, but probably will play it one of these day. Getting sick of HoF religious games, anyway. Need to change the subject.
     
  18. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I personally find this map difficult, just because there are too many options. I was torn between Rexing, Praet-Rushing and Wonderbuilding, as Augustus provides strong bonuses on all of these strategies. I believe that you have to sacrifice at least one of these intentions, but I couldn't.
    Spoiler :
    Built the Pyras due to stone, went for IW with 4 cities only and started war against Wang in order to make early use of Praets. I took 2 cities and saw him building up more and more units in Seoul. Problem is, he grows big very early, he is PRO and he has the Hwacha with bonus vs. Melee. Besides that, he is quite far away, but America is still further. Was afraid that waiting too long would obsolete the superiorty of Praets .
     
  19. Marvinlegend

    Marvinlegend Chieftain

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    Great to see that these still get posted, thanks @Fish Man , played this ~3 hours on stream yesterday on Monarch because I've forgotten pretty much everything probably.

    Spoiler Turn 1 to 165 :


    Did a decent amount of contemplating capital positions, plains hill 3E was an option but it'd take three whole turns and you'd move a lot into blind territory. Thought about settling on the marble on T2 but Warrior 1NE showed me dessert tiles in the east so I just ended up with SIP.

    First techs were Agri -> AH -> BW to get my city running.
    Mystic for Stonehenge, Wheel and pottery for huts (not sure where I squeezed masonry in)


    Lost a scouting warrior to two barb warriors spawning from a hut (totally forgot this was a thing)

    Stole a worker with another warrior from Wang Kon, but let him wander back unprotected because I used the warrior to look into Wang Kons borders, the worker was promptly killed by a barb, Karma I guess.

    Second City for stone on T40



    Build stonehenge without it (thanks Industrious) because I hate taking care of border expansion.


    After my third city on T58 I decided to not let have WK this spot:




    Techs after this were Writing and thin IW to see if the mapmaker gods blessed us with iron.
    Also got Great Wall and Pyramids with my stone.

    Build my frontier city on T88/89 in the face of WK, Monument from Stonehenge already was enough to still the copper from him after a few rounds



    Started Praet "rushing" Wang Kon on T111, no big issue, took all cities but one (his capital is Hinduism Holy City to which I converted for the money and happines after the war with a golden Age from a great Prophet), could have taken the last too, but I was a bit behind on tech and decided to rather get all his techs.

    Barbs ran wild this game, too much place I guess, founded at least two cities and took one from Lincoln who for some reason was completely inept to take it back, so I decided to do it "for him".



    Detroit was founded after

    Got several wonders thanks to IND + ress





    T165, probably gonna (try to) lib-bulb Military Tradition and then rush Lincoln with Cuirs/Cav after that probably Space.

    One of the AIs on the other continent seems pretty strong from the statistics.

     

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