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NC by T60?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Southlord, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    unless you are Isabella and discover some game breaking NW... no. 3-4 cities alone at turn 60 is tough. Getting libraries in them before NC (and philo tech) by turn 60? :lol: no freaking way.
     
  2. _megafone_

    _megafone_ Warlord

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    NC on turns 60-65 with 4 cities simply isn't feasible without a LOT of luck on huts. With that # of cities, turn 85 is a good benchmark. Turn 65 is good for OCC.

    Maybe Shoshone going Liberty can hit NC on 60 with 4 cities, but even then, I ain't so sure it's possible.
     
  3. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    So I just did this to test the benchmark 3 times.
    all on standard/deity/Pangaea
    I rerolled each map to get an "average start," ie not tons of jungle or excessive hills, no salt, etc.

    1st attempt with Korea. Settled T1 NC up T68 on a 3 city start with very good opportunity to buy 4th settler once AI has some more cash.

    2nd attempt with Korea. Settled T4 (had to walk a long way to get hill/river), had NC T66 with a 2 city start and in position to buy 3rd settler, 4th settler uncertain.

    3rd attempt with Japan (acid test). Settled T0, had NC up T62 with a 1 city start, settled 2nd city a few turns later.

    With a little luck any of these could have been under T60. It is certainly doable. I never actually do in my games even though I tell people to try for it lol. It is very good practice for people trying to step up and learn how to really focus an empire in the beginning and what the consequences of doing so are.
     
  4. SirPepsi

    SirPepsi Warlord

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    I've only ever achieved a sub-T60 NC with 2 cities on a large islands map. It's difficult because you must know from the beginning you are aiming for an SV.
     
  5. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    High risk/high reward scenario. For practice games, that's a great way to learn but once I commit to a long game, I won't play the quit/re-roll game that a single-focused risky strategy implies. To use an extreme example, one can possibly put everything into getting GL and when it does fail, what then? But that's the consequences you mentioned. Some, I guess, are apt to play less risky.
     
  6. Catan_Settler

    Catan_Settler Prince

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    It's either a mixup of game speed, or people just being idiots on the internet pretending they're amazing by just making stuff up. This happens constantly on the forums here, I mean we have people claiming to clear whole maps by turn 150 or winning by science on turn 200, and it should be apparent that these people are full of it.

    I mostly play MP so I'm used to quick speed, and I can tell you yes you can get the national college by turn 60.. sometimes turn 50. But that is only when you DO NOT build a settler first, and instead build growth buildings in your capital (granary, watermill) and go straight to philosophy. I don't see how it could be done with several settlers in first though, although turn 70~80 with 2 or 3 cities can for sure be done, given the right conditions. This usually involves settling your 2nd and/or 3rd city on a hill with a plains tile you can work. With liberty, a city like that pumps out a library in 10~12 turns. So yeah, if you rush the settlers out and put them in spots like that, you can usually get the national college queued up in your cap around turn 55~60 and let it build. But no, any claims to have 4 city national colleges up on turn 60 are pretty much guaranteed to be epic lies. And this is at quick speed I'm referring to... if they're talking about standard there's just no possible way.
     
  7. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    I guess if you rush... (but may I ask what your capitol looked like when NC got up?) Shrine? Water mill? Granary? and how many archers did you manage? Also did you get marble or any wonder +% modifier... usually even for 1 city the construction time for NC is 10+ turns that early... and the more cities, the higher cost.

    It MIGHT be feasible (on 2nd thought) but does that mean skipping everything else and be completely helpless to early aggression? (aka not practical to do)
     
  8. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    60 with multiple cities is extreme. ~75-85 is reasonable. In many situations ~100 is just fine.

    I'd argue that Education and scientist slots are more important than a fast NC. As long as you are reaching Education at a reasonable time and able to start working those GS slots, I wouldn't overly concern yourself with exact NC turns.
     
  9. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    "Skipping everything else" seems to be the preferred optimal strategy.
     
  10. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    There are screen shots of these wins. Go have a look at the Deity Challenges. Please do not assume that folks are lying because you are not able to match the results.

    Your second paragraph tells the story I think. Plains tiles flat out suck. If your not settle your satellites on a hill, you are asking for trouble. With tradition a city will have no trouble pumping out a library quick enough if it is on a hill and works a hill.

    You also clearly either have not read the whole thread or mis-understand the actual goal. The goal is to have the NC up by T60, AND to have 4 cities. Sometime this means that the new settlers stand around waiting for the NC to finish...
     
  11. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

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    The idea is to grow cities very fast to get most techs as possible before going for Philo. 3 cities and NC by turn 52-55 needs a good land(quick speed, mp). 56-60 is average. Unless you aim for a 2 cities CB rush you can stick with 2 cities NC before annexing/settling more and still get the NC around 60.

    There is a huge difference between having 3-4 cities at 3-4 :c5citizen: than having 2-3 cities with 7-8 :c5citizen:. The 2nd option is much stronger.
     
  12. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    This is of course the consequence I mentioned in a earlier post. You basically have to bee line phylo and grab one lux tech on the way.

    Typically, you have no military, and just a granary in the cap. No military is not an issue, if you are going for this it assumes that you have a relatively peaceful neighbor. The major downside is that the cap ends up with ~5-6 pop at ~T70 which is pretty crappy and means a caravan will have to wasted on food.

    All three of my attempts where "average" starts. Only the second one had marble in the three ring and I did not get it running until 2 turns before the NC finished so it had no effect. Other than that, they where a mix of typical start with either calendar or mining lux's, no salt. I settled all cities Hill/river which meant I had to settle attempt 2 on T4. That was actually a scary start because if I had not moved, Persia would have settled on the 5 ring of my starting location :)
     
  13. Qoma

    Qoma Warlord

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    I think people are moreso debating the idea that "You should always have NC and 4 cities by T##" vs. "I set a record by having NC and 4 cities by T##".
     
  14. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    so science wise... was the quick NC and expansions worth it? (I'm really curious now)
    Your cap is at low pop, meaning science from caravans is huge, but now you want to feed your cap...

    On the other hand you have more cities with maybe 2 science pts each, but +50% of a size 5-6 cap is probably much less than +50% of a size 11 cap...
     
  15. Keirador

    Keirador Deity

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    When I do Babylon I get the NC up and running around T50 (T53 on most recent attempt), but I don't expand until I have the NC. Depending on which tree I took I'll have 1 - 2 settlers waiting to set up cities (or the cash to buy them) by the time I pop that NC, so 4 cities and the NC by turn 60 doesn't seem that crazy. . . but I also wouldn't pursue a strategy like that with any Civ but Babylon, where the NC is giving you +50% of Babylon's T20 settled Academy. The negatives of having settlers waiting around for many turns just doesn't seem worth it compared to the advantages of getting the NC a bit earlier. If I'm playing wide domination I might not get the NC for a looooong time, maybe never if I'm always razing at least one city without a library. That just happened to me in my last Immortal game as Shoshone. Between pausing my warmongering long enough to ensure every non-puppet had a library, and not pausing my warmongery, I went with not ever letting up.
     
  16. Lunco

    Lunco Chieftain

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    While we are on the subject of timing science buildings: could someone please do a test for 4 cities with university timing? Also interested in what other buildings you got and how much pop in cities.

    joshua43214, pretty pls :p?
     
  17. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    Don't need to test this. It is pretty map dependent. You will find though that using a tradition 3-4 city NC start you will finish Education ~110-115 depending on whether you researched construction or BW or not (I never do if I can help it). The cap will have 12-18 depending on fertility (I am happy with 16 but aim for 18), and have pretty much all available buildings up and I can usually get Oracle in as well if I choose. I end up with 2 -3 satellites cities (2 on the vast majority of maps) with anywhere from 6-14 pop depending on fertility all with granaries, libraries, and water mills + whatever else has a chance to build. I will also get the trade route up, and ~4 or 5 defensive units, 2-3 scouts +3-6 workers.

    All this is doing a more "normal" NC start where you start with 1 or 2 cities get the lux techs and the NC is up ~T85. I skip construction whenever possible and pick it up after education and tech to printing press for Pisa and world congress, along with x-bows. I have found that I am fine with just archers unless I am next to a warmonger the vast majority of the time on Immortal. Even on deity I find this works pretty well. Not expanding for ~60 turns seems to make the AI very happy with you.
     
  18. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    You never research Construction if you can help it?!
     
  19. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    Never until I have too. The longer I wait, the fewer turns it will take to research it. I do not research it just so that I ready for an imagined threat. I will even forgo masonry if I don't need it.
     
  20. Lunco

    Lunco Chieftain

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    Yea, I delay it as long as I can too. If you get a bunch of horses, you can just get Chariot Archers and stay safe. They have very similar stats (Comps have +1 attack and armor, but the terrain penalties on horses are a bit rough).
     

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