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NC CLII: Kublai Khan of Mongolia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dalamb, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

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    Kingston, Ontario
    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Kublai Khan of Mongolia, whom we last played in NC LXXIX; we last played the Mongolians under Ghengis Khan in NC CXLV.
    • Traits: Kublai Khan is Aggressive and Creative. AGG means faster barracks and drydocks, and Combat I for melee and gunpowder units; unfortunately it doesn't syergize with the mounted Unique Unit. CRE means +2:culture: per city, which means you can get the critical first border pop quickly without investing :hammers: in cultural buildings; this is especially helpful in newly-conquered cities. It also means faster libraries, which means you can start running science specialists sooner to generate an early Great Scientist for an academy.
    • His UB: The Ger is a stable that gives 4XP to mounted units instead of 2. A (cheap) barracks and Ger give you two promotions immediately and put you 3 XP from a 3rd promotion -- or 1, if you run Vassalage or Theocracy.
    • His UU: The Kheshik is a horse archer with a first strike that ignores terrain movement costs, which makes a big difference on forested or hilly maps. Unlike HAs, it lacks immunity to first strikes, but its own first strike cancels that of an unpromoted archer, so early on that's a wash. Watch out for drill-promoted archers, against which Kheshiks are more vulnerable than regular horse archers.
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    Global highlands, ridgelines, normal peaks, normal continents.
    Spoiler edits :
    Swapped us with a leader who had horses reasonably nearby.
    Spoiler who :
    Justinian
    Ensured each AI had some sort of strategic resource nearby.
    Spoiler immortal+ :
    Giggles might have a bit too much land, but it was hard to be sure, so I left him alone.
    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 152 Kublai Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
     

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  2. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

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    Kingston, Ontario
    Spoiler comment on map type :
    Seems to have less food than I'm used to with other map scripts. Lots of hills, which should give the Kheshiks a movement advantage over anyone else trying to use mounted units.
     
  3. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    First impression:

    Oh boy my poor newbie arse; you made a puzzle didn't you. It's pretty obvious what I SHOULD be doing, but the execution... that' another pair.

    edit: 1320bc:

    Spoiler :
    oracled HBR with 4 cities out. still have archery to go. Justy has metal. No idea how to hack this, but i'll try later


    edit2: couple of turns later: MAJOR SPOILER

    Spoiler :
    you evil person. He has iron, and we have no way of seeing it. That's just sadistic. I guess we go for the obvious 6 prod mine XD



    Edit 3:

    Spoiler :
    lost 3 keshiks taking Nople. Looking left and right, I have to ask, how much time did you spend doctoring this map ? :o



    Edit 4:

    Spoiler :
    I restarted from the point I took Nople to see if I could set up a stronger empire before the attack by going all 'rexy' on our green (lol) pastures. You just run into too much stuff to build and it totally kills research. Im sure one of the gurus will come here with a crazy early HBR date and 5 cities but I think the 1320 one with 3 developed cities and a fourth getting installed is the best I can do.
     
  4. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Chieftain

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    Oh god I hate sheep.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Sucktastic! :D

    Damn tasty on a kebab, not so tasty as a Civ 4 food resource - especially as the only one and on hills
     
  6. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan Chieftain

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    I think there is an argument for moving 1N,extra food for the capitol and opens up a second city site for the marble so it can share the grassland sheep.Thats hypothetical though,all depends on the scouts 1st move,which I would send to the marble to check for seafood.

    I cant play for a few days,but looking forward to playing kublai with marble.This can open up some interesting oracle techs if you can bulb maths via the cheap librarys,plus we start with the wheel to hook up the marble,so id be looking at AH,min,BW,myst,mas,poly,priesthood.
     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Unfortunately, based on what we see here, this is a cap where food sharing is probably not a good idea. HOwever, marble would be excellent to settle on if seafood down there.
     
  8. Quip

    Quip Chieftain

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    Taking a quick look at the start, the lack of food is a bummer. Without moving scout, I'd say 1 N or NW is the best. 1 NW would give you an extra forest and plains hill to work later and would be pretty sweet if there's another food resource hiding in the fog. Let's see how that assumption played out:

    Scout and Capital spoiler
    Spoiler :
    Good thing scout is totally blocked off from even helping with that dilemma. Moved him 1 NE and there's nothing good to the East.

    As for the settler, I went 1 NW and was underwhelmed. Figured I might as well go ambitious. Moved the settler NE (2N of start). And dropped our Capital the next turn.
    Start.jpg

    I'm pretty happy with it actually. Ended up with 1 extra forest from the start position, and gained three grassland tiles with fresh water and swapped a dry grassland hill for a wet one as well.

    Also, my scout has uncovered yet another valuable resource of sheep! Rejoice!
     
  9. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    Have people tried doing the writing > bulb math > oracle HBR on this yet? I might be wrong but it looks like you'd be too late to do anything decent with the results.
     
  10. Quip

    Quip Chieftain

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    Fail. I'm going to reload and try again. Input requested, Keshik related for the lurkers.

    1AD - Imm - No huts
    Spoiler :
    Went for a HA rush after meeting Justinian. The land is absolutely terrible, I've got a few immortal wins with some middling land (See latest Lonely hearts) but 4 health resources and 1 happy (whales lolol) within a 3-city radii of the Capital. Not going to cut it. Biggest question was where to put my second city, which I decided just to grab a city that would push towards Justinian. Went with two cities and teched for the rush.

    Techs: AH>Ag>Mining>BW>Writing>Archery>HBR> Bulb Math > Pottery

    Declared with 9 Keshiks and more in the pipeline. Sadly build three chariots which of course could not keep up with the stack. Razed the first city and was able to reach Constantinople with 6 uninjured double promoted Keshiks and two at half health against a sword, an axe and an archer. Was not able to capture, and within 15 turns Justy had researched math and construction.

    Although it was really close, there were two problems that I identified:
    1. I only built two cities. While the land is atrocious, I ended up with too big a surplus of worker turns. There were turns where I was running positive at 0% research and the army in the field. That can't happen when you're selling out for someone else's land. A third city probably would've meant 2-3 more Keshiks in my original stack.

    2. Delaying pottery. While there isn't much use for the whip with such sparse food, I had a few two pop whips. 1-2 more Keshiks were the difference between stealing the Mahabodhi and the failure I ended up with.

    Save included for the lulz. Had HBR at 900 BC and Math at 850 for anyone comparing dates (I figured Oracle would simply slow down HBR and waste forests that I could put into Keshiks)
     

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  11. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Yeah see, there must be a magic period in between our dates. I didn't get math at all, just going AH>min>BW>Fish>Myst>Mas>Poly>PH>Pot>Writ which netted me 4 cities, HBR 1320 and 7 Keshiks 1 chariot AFTER taking Nople 575BC, with a Library building only now in Capital. I have 123 gold left and +4 at 0% BUT Nople did not have a shrine yet, so I'm not sure if this is sustainable. I'll play more later. If I can make it to the next tech and score a prophet I may be able to break even and keep conquering.
     
  12. Quip

    Quip Chieftain

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    Take #3 (We don't need to talk about take two).

    300 AD - Imm

    Spoiler :
    The one in which the Keshiks get to shine.

    Let it be known that there was some significant spoilerage. I basically planned my cities from the start this time, but this is workshop on rushing for me. 3 cities this time as well, which slowed down my timing from the first attempt but added a some necessary production.

    Tech path: AH>Ag>Mining>BW>Pottery>Writing>HBR>Fishing>Archery>Bulb Math
    By 725 BC I settle into build mode.

    Then I shut my tech off for a while as a buffer from strikes should capture gold not be sufficient. Discussing the path, I added Pottery before because the granaries are just so important. The discount to writing wasn't bad either, though it did mean I had to wait several turns to start chopping. I delayed archery to get fishing and built Gers in all three cities. There was still some sloppy play but in general I still feel this is a pretty strong tech path. I got somewhere between 80-100 hammers holding off on the chops with my GS'd Math.

    There was also some improvement in my tactical play. The turn I was preparing to invade, Justinian left several units in our bordering cities. However, there was a gap in culture between Nicea and the capital. So instead of spending part of the stack plowing through the frontier city, the Keshiks went for the kill on the capital, and declared war after getting to the other side of Justin's blocking city.
    third time's a charm.jpg

    After that Justinian didn't have any iron inside his culture, so I swept up some archer cities and called for peace. Since the land will take a lot of work to improve, we've got to build up and explore.
    Byzantine.jpg

    Save included for the curious.


    Ohblivion any chance of a picture of your starting 4 cities, I'd like to see how they compare. Also what difficulty are you on? I'm curious about how the production/food differs between working mostly farms vs. your coastal commerce.
     

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  13. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    Im gonna post my save, I'm hoping someone gives me advice on what I couldve done better. This was without spoilerage btw, just my first attempt.

    It's interesting, it looks like you played way better on the forward settling and all, but I seem to be outpacing you, all I need is a bit of tech.

    Spoiler :
    Immortal, 25bc, 8 cities, 350 gold in the bank.
    Used prophet to shrine Nople.

    I think I did AH>MIN>BW>FISH>MYST>MAS>MEDI(mistake!)>PRIHOO>ARCH

    so as I said before managed intercept his southward settlers and bruteforce Nople at 575BC, but then I was sorta broke, and I focused on pillaging camps/mines and the like since Justi had quite a big stack of Horse archers, since apparently he must have a second source of horse somewhere. I'm probably now coming up to thepoint where I can go on the offensive again but i'm unsure what to tech. Code of laws seems obvious, but Mehmed has it. Aestethics seems to be an option too since Mehmed doesn't have it, and I do have Marble, but I'm not sure i I can trade it for COL in time to not go broke if I go on the offensive. That still leaves me without math or alpha :/

    EDIT: Upon reflection i'll try Aesthetics. I should be able to trade it for Alpha and then limp to COL or Currency.

    EDIT2: ROFLMAO I think I've solved it XD Spilers later !

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :
     

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  14. Quip

    Quip Chieftain

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    You definitely have a head start in developing Mongolia proper. With how long it took me to develop my captured core, you may've had a better time than I did getting out of the early tech hole.

    1630 AD - Immortal
    Spoiler :
    My play was definitely far too lazy to save this. While in this save I'm in a decent position and pulling back towards respectability, waiting to finish Justinian off was a mistake. This turn he pulled in the game leader and his vassals, which means I'm now facing 43 cities worth of production again my 14. From what I can see so far, De Gaulle will land 27 units next turn into Mongolia proper and I'm sure there are reinforcements to come.


    The size of this map is just gassing me. I may try to salvage it but at this point we're calling this a retirement.

    So let's look at the numbers:
    Demos.jpg
    The GNP is a little lower than it would be after losing trade routes to half the world. I'd like to think I did an alright job considering two of our the three civs that are beating us in most of the major categories haven't had to go to war to get their land, and the third (De Gaulle) seems to have gathered his Vassals without much resistance. Paris' position on the Sury/Boobica/Gaulle definitely helped in securing France 19 cities, none of which have a foreign name! While the Khmer was situated as far south as Mongolia's start was and the Celts were stuck in a peninsula, Paris was situated just centrally enough to claim to lion's share of the continent.

    stats.jpg
    Cottages are slowly growing up, but I'm probably behind compared to others. Really only took this picture because I was dreaming of environmentalism in the late game.

    So yeah, I'm probably done with this one. Mongolia probably still has a chance at winning, but the amount of Ugh... is just too much. At the very least, I'll leave this save as a milestone.

    Starting position envy level: 10/10
    Turkish Delight.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    Yeah it looks like you shouldve redeclared, and since I have no experience almost with real late game immortal wins, I can't advise you on how to pull a win out of that. I'm worrying how to win my own vs you know who.

    GG sir, I will now be posting my story and play to the same timestamp.

    1630AD; Immortal.

    Spoiler :
    So after 25BC, I decided to tech aesthetics and keep wailing on Justinian.

    So it turns out that I get Aesthetics one turn after Justinian gets Alpha. So we do this:

    Spoiler :


    and next turn the situation looks like this. :cool:

    Spoiler :



    Justinian then Vassals to Mehmed who had feudalism already. We limp to currency and trade for construction to redeclare on Justinian and his Boss, 520AD. Keshiks and Elepults vs Elepults and longbows. On Hills. Yeah it wasn't easy. Lot o back and forth for awhile, got stalled a few times, but I didn't give up.

    I tech to Engineering. Whilst I was able to whipe Justinian off the map with th keshiks/elepults, vs Mehmed I had to defend till I got Trebuchets.
    About halfway through I realize all this watching of Absolute Zero has made me able to war AND tech at the same time, so I decide to try and get to lib as well.
    I put national epic in Old sarai (yeah I know horrible spot) just to be able to get a scientist to bulb edu. Heroic epic in Constantinople (GREAt spot).

    The War comes to and end and lo and behold:

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :



    Various turns later, we compare our situation to Quip :D

    1630 AD:

    Spoiler :


    It seems that the general situation is similar on the geopolitical level. I have been able to give degaulle a few techs to keep him rom vassaling Boudica 'till now. I just gave Khmer Rifling to try and help him out, but I'm not sure how long he will hold out. Degaule is on his way to assembly line, I will prolly do the same, but trying for medicine first. Gonna be though still to win space I wager. 27 cities vs a potential 43 :/

    Spoiler :



    Spoiler :

    Envinromentalism is still an option, but State property is doing fine for now ;)


    And this one just to spite Quip. I didn't manage to get oxford here though, it's down in Mongolia :(

    Spoiler :

    Yep we got Biology :D
     

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  16. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    Aaaaaand 1925 space. Even though I never managed to get topdog on production. go me!


    Thanks to Absolute Zero for the many awesome deity medieval warfare let's plays he has done. I wouldn't have been able to do this otherwise for sure.
     
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Good job, Ohb! Now go play HOF ;)
     
  18. Ohblivion

    Ohblivion Chieftain

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    ;)

    Lemme try an easy deity game after a few more immortal runs (can't believe i'm saying this !).
    HOF will never be for me I guess, I'll be 95 Y/O before I will be able to play as well as some of you guys here :/.

    All in all I learned some stuff from this:

    Spoiler :

    • I almost never do HA rushes, so this was good practice. It seems that I did not do an 'optimal' one, but I got there. I learned alot about abusing terrain movement, pillaging, and just generally confusing the AI.
    • I learned that AZs medieval warfare rubbed off on me a tiny bit. I had NEVER thought I would be able to get to lib during this war.
    • I immroved my diplo management. A bit proud of being able to stop Mehmed from vassaling whilst I was wailing on him, instigating wars on the frenchcontinent, stopping those wars, generally influencing global politics more than I ever did before
    • I did not manage the diplo situation well enough to win through UN though :mad:
    • I have NO IDEA how to spacerace efficiently, I just made it up as I went along. Think I beelined the internet and then went straight to genetics, relying on the internet to get the requesite techs for Appolo program. Is that correct ?
    • Still too much sloppyness to try deity, gonna do more immortal for a bit :)
     
  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    HOF is not all about being the best. It can be just as much personal as competitive. It's fun and you will learn a lot, while seeing your progress recorded for all time.
     
  20. Quip

    Quip Chieftain

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    Well played, Ohblivion. Comparing your game to mine I was definitely wrong to wait to finish off you know who. I actually had a moment where I considered going for engineering but decided to wait for Military tradition, which just wasn't the correct play.

    Spoiler :
    It didn't help that around the time I could have gone for engineering Suleiman was showing his jannasaries in our shared border city. He wasn't interested in Justinian as a vassal in my game but I was always quite worried he would.

    And damn, that screen of Istanbul was everything I dreamed it would be and more.
     

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