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NC CLXXX - Hatshepsut - Egypt

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    NC CLXXX - Hatshepsut - Egypt

    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    The next leader is Hatshepsut of Egypt, whom we last played in NC CXLII; The Egyptians start with The Wheel and Agriculture.
    • Traits: Hatshepsut is Spiritual and Creative. SPI means no anarchy when changing religions or civics (easier diplo, great micro opportunities,..), and double production speed of Temples (and Cristo Redentor, but don't go there). CRE gives +2:culture: for every city (meaning you don't have to worry about getting resources in the inner ring), and double production speed of Library, Theatre and Colosseum (especially the cheap library is nice early on).
    • The UB: The Obelisk, a Monument that can turn 2 Citizens into Priests.

    • The UU: The War Chariot, a Chariot with 5:strength: instead of 4, which is Immune to First Strikes. A fantastic rushing unit... if you are fast enough.

    The start gentlemen, I hope it already feels like Egypt :)

    Spoiler map details :
    Standard Pangea, temperate climate with 1 more opponent, opponents choosen for flavour.
    Spoiler edits :
    Some starting positions where switched (an easy pushover was transferred to the other end of the map) and the starting locations have been minorly edited (more balanced)

    Spoiler strategic considerations :
    you get to have your awesome UU and even have a backup location. Also, as Egypt, Stone is available...
    The first 2 targets are no pushovers, the 3rd is outright scary for war chariots :D


    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 180 "difficult-level" "hut" or "nohuts"" (choose your preferences). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles' Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in WorldBuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the WorldBuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labelled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the WorldBuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: There are saves with huts+events turned on and also saves with no huts and no events. If you want huts but no events, select the "huts" saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.


    have fun!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    Reserved for issues and announcements
     
  3. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    Thanks, Mizar. Looks nice! Wet wheat, FPs, and a rare high :commerce: luxury. Warrior S or SW, I think. Might want to settle 1W on the plains so as not to waste a riverside grass. Hmmm... but then that looks like it'd lose an FP.

    Probably AH first to find horsies :hammer:. Early Pottery also looks attractive, but Mining for the Silver likely a better way to jumpstart research.
     
  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Can silver naturally appear in that type of terrain? I don't really care either way, just curious.
     
  5. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    Spoiler on starting position :
    the start was a little too good for excellent players, so gold got toned down to silver :)
     
  6. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    I think i'm going to take a break from my other deity game and play this one... will start later today. Going to try it without reloads so i'll probaby lose...

    Silver is like deer -- normally it appears in tundra but if it starts in the big fat cross of your starting position, the tundra gets upgraded to a plains... Incense is the same thing -- always on desert, unless its in your first city settle in place radius, then you get the rare plains incense, which is nice.

    I think its impossible to have plains silver anywhere other than your starting cap spot... unless you get a lucky mine pop.

    edit: although you might be right if you were actually talking about the surrounding tiles... that would be a pretty quick transition from desert to tundra.
     
  7. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I forgot, if you play on higher levels you have to give barbs archery and stuff?

    That's fast service, ty ;)
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Hunting + Archery + Ag on Immortal and also The Wheel on Deity.
     
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    This is just soooo wrong..
    i wonder if i did something wrong, but i only gave them what Izuul said :confused:

     

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  10. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    For even more fun, give the barbs gunpowder and set the great wall as destroyed.
     
  11. Lazteuq

    Lazteuq Chieftain

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    Turn 22 spearman? Thats horrifying! I think I might know what it is: Spearmen, unlike Axemen, require Hunting and Iron or Copper, but they dont actually require Bronze Working to build. Check the Civilopedia to confirm. Of course, a civilization can only get metals by having BW, but Barbarians don't have that metal requirement.
     
  12. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    if this is the case then why do archers spawn before spears in most games?

    One time i had a barb city spawn right on top of a copper resource, and instead of being full of archers it was full of axemen... i'm pretty sure copper is relevant for barbs, but maybe thats only for city barbs rather than free range barbs.
     
  13. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    I was finding that Fippy's isolated Deity game was spawning spears at an unusually high rate. Maybe that was just random chance. They weren't coming from a barb city, though, just spawning individually. Over, and over, and over...
     
  14. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

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    Pittsburgh, USA
    looking forward to playing this one. like moving the warrior S.... and go from there - 1W looks like where I'll probably settle.
     
  15. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    played to 2755 bc (marathon, deity, turn 83)

    Spoiler :

    settled on plains hill 1sw.

    Wasn't sure what to tech first. Animal husbandry seems like a huge gamble here, since its totally useless if i don't have horses due to the lack of any closeby pasture resources.

    I decided to go mining first because i'll need it eventually for the silver anyway. After mining, i realized that i was close to being boxed in, with a lot of AI's nearby. So i went for bronze working because i figured i'd need to chop a bunch of settlers fast. (In the end i had no copper and it didn't save much time getting my 2nd city down, but i think it will still help development speed... )

    but this game is going remarkably well. Didn't lose any rolls to the barbs and unlike fippy i did not have to deal with any spearmen. :LOL: the land nearby is very favorable, lots of food for specialists which is great on creative with cheaper libraries... i've got it fogbusted, and i got lucky enough to manage to get a good blocking city, so i have now walled off enough territory to peacefully expand to 9 cities if i decide to go that route.

    Teching pottery next to get my economy up. I will settle cities #3 and #4 quickly by chopping a couple more settlers. After that i'm not sure what i want to do, so many options... Its almost overload in how many options i have.... i have stone and i think its not too late to try for pyramids if i tech masonry immediately after pottery.

    Could go animal husbandry to see if i have horses... could build about 6 cities and go for catapults + war chariots to try to take more land.

    one advantage of warmongering is that i can take the hindu capital on the first turn... with hatsheptsut's unique obelisk, getting a great priest to found a shrine for it should be very easy to do. On the other hand, teching AH is still a risk, because i need to get masonry pretty quickly after pottery to have a decent chance of getting the pyramids.

    I think i'm just going to go for pyramids and peaceful expansion and forget the war chariots this game. I'll let someone else do the war chariot rush and see how it goes... if there are even horses here...


     
  16. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    1850bc:
    Spoiler :




    got the mids :D

    but now what should I do??? I can't decide. I wonder if i should go for cultural... i haven't done that in a long time, and never on immortal+...
     
  17. wongfu

    wongfu Chieftain

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    Location:
    Hong Kong
    500BC, emperor, no huts no events.

    Spoiler :


    City placement strategy: toward opponent, use fewest cities to capture the most important resources. My cities are built on 2360BC, 1440BC, 900BC, 675BC, 500BC. It's slow, for reason I don't yet understand. My focus was to grab as much resources as possible, and I didn't manage to start building any wonders.
    Research order: mining (for silver), pottery (take advantage of flood plain), bronze working, animal husbandry, Hunting (for defense), writing, alphabet.
    I spent 1 turn exploring around before SIP.
    Great scientist built academy on 600BC.
    Right now I am trying to get hanging gardens in capital, while building quarry near the 6th city.
     
  18. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    I lose at 1392 ad! (turn 591)
    Spoiler :


    Was about 250 turns away from cultural victory but then gilgamesh was taking over the world.... he vassalized about 5 civs including all my neighbors.

    I had him at friendly, but then he switches out of hereditary rule and into free religion and suddenly i'm cautious because i lost the shared civic and shared religion bonus. Couldn't figure out a way to get him back to pleased let alone friendly!!

    I probably would have lost this game even if he hadn't declared on me, since at the rate he was capping civs he would probably win domination pretty soon even if he never attacked me.

    at one point he offered me a permanent alliance but i declined like a dumbass -- if i agree, then do my points count towards his domination win? I'm not even sure...

     
  19. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    To 1170BC. Good fun so far!

    Settings: IMM, normal speed, NHNE

    Spoiler :
    T1 4000BC: Warrior SW reveals coast to W and S. SiP leaves room for a coastal city to the W, so let's go with that.

    Settling reveals two more FPs, wine NE just outside the BFC, and dry wheat E. Looks like there might be a fair bit of brown land around. Thebes starts on a worker.

    T4 3840BC: Met Hammy. Scout appears to have come from the east. Must be close :hammer:.

    T5 3800BC: Time to pick a tech. AH it is.

    T6 3760BC: Met Hannibal, put EPs on him. Also appears to have come from E, possibly SE. Based on coast, AI scout appearances, and type of trees, I think we might be near the NW of a landmass.

    T7 3720BC: Met another Babylonian scout in the southern jungle. Warrior will continue a counterclockwise loop.

    T12 3520BC: Met a Persian scout, and found Babylonian borders. Babylon looks to be about 10E1S of Thebes. Could be rushtastic! Don't need to worry about Bowmen's bonus against melee, ofc. AH next turn ... c'mon dobbin!

    T13 3480BC: Aw hells yeah!

    Spoiler :

    Thanks to the RNG gods, or to Mizar, as appropriate :bowdown:.


    Well... spoilt for choice! SW site is a better city, but settling towards the first target is strategically better. Not sure exactly what to do - of the two SE cities marked above, the W one can help Thebes with one of the FP cottages, and gets the sugar for later. E is riverside, closer to Babylon, and gets an FP of its own. Both have horse and wheat first ring (less of an issue with a CRE leader, I know, but still saves time). E probably better, but don't need to decide just yet.

    Mining next. Will want chops and whips for building WCs, and the Silver will help get to BW quickly.

    Also met Alexander, the Greek scout must have slipped out of vision though. Guess this is Pangaea.

    T14 3440BC:

    Spoiler :

    Workersteal from my first victim would be ideal right now. Depends what that Bowman does.


    T15 3400BC:

    Spoiler :

    Shame, looks like he's on guard duty.


    Worker complete in Thebes, moved to the wheat. Will be going for the classic warriors to pop 3, then settler.

    T20 3200BC: Got a glimpse into Babylon from the tile 2SW of the city tile. It's guarded by 3 Bowmen, and is behind a river. I know there's at least one more Bowman guarding the worker. Met Giggles. Switched EPs to Hammy to get demos. Wheat farm completed this turn. Silver next, then roading to 2nd city site. Started research on BW.

    T23 3080BC: Met Augustus. Don't know where anyone apart from Hammy is located yet.

    T25 3000BC: Second Balylonian and Carthaginian cities are out, requiring an update to the dotmap.

    Spoiler :


    Looks like the first settler will be heading SW. Hammy still the first target - will give Hannibal time to clear some jungle. Warrior complete this turn. Don't need fogbusting for the SW city spot, so will send him scouting N - hoping there might be unoccupied land up there that I can settle at leisure.

    1T till growth - putting that into a Rax.

    T26 2960BC: Hmmm, working the wheat and two FPs means growth to pop 4 will take 4T. This would delay BW by 1-2T, but being able to 2-pop whip the settler (onto a worker, maybe) is quite attractive.

    T33 2680BC: BW is in, switch to Slavery, start on Pottery.

    Spoiler :

    Hammy doesn't have Copper that I can see, but 3 tiles in Babylon are fogged. Two of those are riverside, so chances of facing spears seem fairly low. There is a source of Copper just 3 tiles SE of Babylon, so he might get that before I attack. Will need a unit in place for a quick pillage if that happens.


    Northern scouting warrior killed a wonded barb archer on the coast. Also found Greek lands to the south.

    T36 2560BC: 2-pop whipped the settler with 30 :hammers: OF. Worker should have finished connecting road and be ready to start pasturing 1T after Memphis is settled.

    T38 2480BC: Settled Memphis on the W of the two sites, for instant access to horse. Misjudged timings though, will be 2T until the worker completes the road on the horse. Shouldn't have bothered connecting the silver just yet. Both cities building workers.

    Spoiler :


    T39 2440BC: Pottery done, started writing. Buddhist Hammy is the only civ with a reilgion so far, so hopefully OB will allow religion spread and full scouting of his cap before I declare.

    T41 2360BC: Hammy has built Stonehenge in Babylon. 4T until horses are ready. Just enough time to squeeze in a warrior in Thebes. Second worker moved to forest NW of Thebes to pre-chop. Just noticed I'd kept EPs on Hammy much longer than needed - I can see his tech. He's about to finish masonry, so will keep it on him for one more turn to see what he's after next, then switch back to Hannibal. Not sure if that's the best choice - he's FIN and usually a good techer, but he might not be around for long.

    T43 2280BC: Found Persian lands E last turn, and Cyrus has just settled 2E1S from the copper site SE of Babylon. So Hammy probably won't be getting that one, at least.

    T49 2040BC: First WC complete, and writing. Fishing next for Memphis. Sent the WC to finish scouting Babylon. Open borders with everyone. Hammy has settled his 3rd city, fish / sheep to the NE - conveniently, exactly where I'd dotmapped!

    Spoiler :


    T52 1920BC: Finished scouting Babylonian lands. Hammy doesn't have copper! :banana:

    Pretty resource-rich land overall.

    T55 1800BC: I now have 6 WCs and am at :strength: parity with Hammy. Think it might be time to get busy.

    T56 1760BC: IT'S ON!

    A solitary bowman in Akkad, and there were only two in Babylon when the warrior passed through last turn.

    Don't know why I was worried about religion earlier - ofc once I take Akkad (the buddhist holy city) I'll have Buddhism anyway. Might want to use the obelisk to get a GP for a shrine, see how spread goes.

    T57 1720BC: Akkad still only has one bowman. Moved 1 WC 1E to the PH N of the city. Attacking from here would give odds of 31.12% compared to 20.09% attacking across the river from the tile NE. But Akkad is 4-pop, so it's likely that another defender will be whipped if I wait a turn.

    Carpe diem, I thought. First WC didn't damage the bowman at all, but the second one -

    Spoiler :


    Good job my scribes learnt writing in time to record this first glorious victory :egypt:! Shame there's no hieroglyph for :spank:, though. Spose it's more of a demotic sentiment anyway.

    The WCs who didn't attack had enough movement left to capture two workers E of Akkad. I'm wondering whether I might want to switch research to Alpha - currently have Maths selected, but have been running O% :science:. If I can take Babylon fairly quickly, there might be enough :gold: to blast through it.

    Hammy has also sent out a settler E of Babylon, escorted by one bowman.

    T58 1680BC: His settler has moved S, and a chariot has joined the escort party. The warrior observing this might be toast next turn. Only one bowman in Babylon, although he'll surely whip another between turns. I have 3 WCs in range to attack next turn, one of whom can only reach Babylon across the river.

    The low-odds win last turn gave the victorious WE enough XP to go straight to combat 2!

    T59 1640BC: No new bowmen in Babylon! Moved the two WCs on the FPH NE of the city tile 1E across the river. First attacker died at 14%, but took the bowman down to 0.8 :strength:. Next one gets 99.75% -

    Spoiler :


    Boom! And what a site - 2 cows, marble, phants, wine, wet corn, and silk :drool:. As well as Stonehenge, there's a granary (and obelisk, ofc). It has 6 pop, so can run priests. I almost never move the palace, but will definitely consider it here. More central location will be better once the empire starts sprawling, too.

    Shrine is looking like a plan - Buddhism currently the largest religion.

    On top of all that, the capture gold puts my treasury at 268, plenty to tech alpha at 100% :science:, even if I'm without the silver :commerce: for a few turns.

    With ex-Babylonian roads now usable, I was able to move two WCs into position to take out Hammy's settling party. Might have time to bring a third in to make sure - if they keep heading S it'll be 2T before they can found a city.

    Had to whip a WC in Thebes to deal with a barb archer who will almost certainly pillage my silver between turns.

    T60 1600BC: Well I wasn't expecting that!

    Spoiler :


    Hammy tried, unsuccessfully, to retake Babylon with the chariot from his settler escort. The bowman has also moved into position to attack. The settler moved NW and is sitting, unprotected, 1N of Babylon :crazyeye:. Uh, dude, we're, like, at war and stuff...

    Of the WCs that were lined up, 1 went to snatch the settler, 1 went to garrison Babylon, and the third headed up towards Dur-Kurigalzu, along with my now-healed C2 veteran.

    The archer did indeed pillage, putting Thebes into :mad:. The new WC killed him at 77% odds. Two workers will start rebuilding next turn.

    T62 1520BC: 2 WCs, including the grizzled veteran, ready to attack Hammy's final city. 2 more on the same tile, but out of moves. The vet gets 67.61% odds - one bowman has full fortification bonus. City has 2 pop so chance of a whipped defender between turns probably low - and either way, 4 against 3 is better odds than 2 against 2. So I'll wait a turn.

    Starting to think about next target too, think the WCs are good for another raid. Distance makes Hannibal and Alexander the only realistic targets. Hannibal could be a better trading partner long term, and is the only civ I currently have :traderoute: with. Alex has just converted to Buddhism, and what I've seen of his land does look great, although there's a lot of jungle needing clearing. Hard to decide at this stage.

    Akkad has come out of revolt. It'll serve as a warrior-pump for a little while.

    T63 1480BC:

    Spoiler :


    And (one of) the big purple guy(s) is outta here, folks!

    Lost 2 WCs, including the vet, but the next two had 100% odds. Dur-Kurigalzu will pump a few warriors too. Sent some WCs south to finish scouting Alex and Hannibal. Both have copper. The only metal unit I've seen so far is a Carthaginian axe, and Hannibal, if you're listening, I would encourage you to build many more. Don't bother with spearmen, they're rubbish.

    T65 1400BC: Babylon is out of revolt, and starving. Cold-whipped a WC and it's now stagnant working two farms and two priests.

    Also met Asoka! How rude, I thought we'd all been introduced.

    T67 1320BC: There's a spear, 3 archers and a settler in Carthage. If I'm lucky, the scouting WC can pillage the copper 1T after the DoW, and perhaps take out the settling party. DoWing soon would mean opening the war with insufficient units to take Hannibal out (although ample for Utica), but reinforcements should be able to plug the gap.

    T70 1200BC: I have 5 WCs in position to attack Utica, which contains an archer and an axeman, 2 more following, one in the south to pillage the copper, and a couple more due to be produced in 2T. He's sent out his settler, escorted by an axe and an archer. Not sure where.

    There are two workers, guarded by a spear and an archer, quarrying the marble SW of Carthage. I can see all his territory now, and he doesn't have a second copper. Think I should wait a couple of turns for them to finish and move away, and allow new troops to be ready. Will also have alpha by then.

    T72 1120BC: Monopoly alpha is in! Here's the tech screen:

    Spoiler :


    Giggles is leading, so switched EPs to him. Not much happening in trade. Asoka is the only one willing to trade masonry, and he won't give anything for writing. Giggles seems to be going for Mids - he "has his reasons", while the others just "don't want to start trading away this technology just yet."

    Seems an odd place to leave it, but that's where I got to yesterday. How will tech trading shake out? And will I attack Carthage? Answers written in blood on a postcard, please.
     
  20. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

    Joined:
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    @nate46 Aw man, that's rough. Commiserations. Will have to keep an eye on him in my game.

    Spoiler :
    Totally agree that AH first would be a risky strategy in normal circumstances, but in NC I believe the convention is that the UU resource will always be within reach of a second or third city.


    @wongfu
    Spoiler :
    Initial expansion looks good, but it looks like you're boxed in from now. Are you planning a breakout war? Not entirely sure about HGs - with the usually-not-necessary aqueduct prereq they're quite a pricey build. I only go for them if I have an unusually large number of cities during their window. You've only just started the aqueduct so could change. I'd be looking to get a stack up. Of course, HGs can convert directly into military, if you whip the extra pop. Not sure how many cities you need for that to pay back effectively. Also, academy or bulbing is generally considered a better use for the first GS.

    Hope that didn't seem nitpicky! Like the perspective effect on your screenie btw.

    EDIT: Actually the HG-payback is pretty easy to calculate. You get 30 :hammers: per whipped pop at normal speed. HGs cost 300 :hammers: (150 with stone). Assuming you weren't planning to build an aqueduct anyway, add on another 100 :hammers: for that. So, based purely on population-production, with stone you would want (150+100)/30 = 9 cities (rounded up from 8 1/3) for them to pay back, and without stone, (300+100)/30 = 14 cities (rounded up from 13 1/3).

    Ofc, this ignores the benefits of the health, culture, and GE-points they also bring.
     

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