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NC CLXXX - Hatshepsut - Egypt

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. wongfu

    wongfu Chieftain

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    @Metaslab

    Spoiler :

    I am planning to settle the coastal cities, explore the sea and settle the islands (if there is any). If there is no space to expand, then I will turn to war.
    Oops, I got a typo. I built academy with great scientist.
    For HG... I just want to take advantage of stone. Either HG completion or fail gold is fine for me.
    EDIT: Just found out your edit on HG calculation. That's awesome! I like it!


    BTW, I play until 1AD. (Emperor, no huts, no events, normal speed)
    Spoiler :


    I see someone here failed by Gilgamesh. Indeed, he is the top opponent in my game too.
    425BC - convert to Hinduism (2/3 neighbors adopt Hinduism), organized religion.
    175BC - hanging garden completion
    I am done with expansion. Solving economic problem, searching for islands (I highly doubt their existence) at the moment. Built barracks in production cities and walls in vulnerable places. No plan on constituents of army or who to crush.
     
  2. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    @wongfu

    Spoiler :
    Oh, duh, I forgot about the coastal cities!! Pretty dumb, especially as I have them dotmapped myself. Haven't seen any sign of islands - I share your doubts re their existence. But you're a close 2nd in score, with good land. And yes, stone-powered fail:gold: is always good. Or completion! How many cities did you have in 175BC?
     
  3. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
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    @Metaslab, good game so far,
    Spoiler :
    NC game maps are usually created in a way that ensures the resource for the UU ;)


    I tested the map on my usual settings Imm/epic for 100 turns before I posted the start, now you guys make me want to play it further even with the spoiler info about the map, should be fun.
     
  4. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    @Mizar
    Spoiler :
    Yeah I realise that, made the same point to Nate on the previous page. It was the presence of two horses that made my head spin ... I'm guessing maybe you added the W one?


    Yeah this is a fun map - thank you! - the session I played today was just nuts. In a good way.
     
  5. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    And here it is. To 325BC:

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    Hmmm, Hannibal is actually quite popular. Alex, on the other hand, is worst enemy of the two leading civs. But Alex is also my only fellow-Buddhist.

    Everybody generally hates Asoka, the lone hindu. Cyrus has adopted Judaism.

    Some crazy peaceweights- Giggles has +5 towards Hannibal for "first impressions".

    So I think I'll go for Alex instead. Will be another 3T to get into position. He has a settler in Corinth so might have a fourth city by then. With luck he'll pick the nice gems/ dye/ banana/ corn site I've dotmapped between our territories. Also his copper is easier to pillage. Will have to waste quite a few worker turns clearing jungle, but after killing Babylon I have plenty to go round. Athens looks decent for a GP farm. Main reason: I think there's less chance of a retaliatory dogpile this way.

    Traded writing around. Hunting from Hannibal (instant +1 :) thanks to improved phants in Babylon) and Sailing from Augustus. Also gave pottery to Cyrus for mysticism.

    T73 1080BC: Hannibal will give me IW and meditation for alpha, which is the best offer on the table. He'll start trading it around once one more civ knows it. Cyrus must be close, because he'd only offer me meditation for it, despite also being willing to trade IW and archery.

    Getting IW reveals that I have one source of iron in Babylon (as if that city wasn't ridiculous enough already!), and two more easily claimable to the north, both within sites I've dotmapped. Neither Alex or Hannibal have it.

    T76 1000BC: War with Greece has begun! DoWed with 8 WCs in main stack, more following.

    Spoiler :


    The three archers in Corinth fell with only one loss. Alex has now lost his only source of metal.

    Diplo hit doesn't seem too bad. Got -1 from Giggles, Hannibal and Cyrus. Nobody is plotting.

    Nobody's up for a bribe, so I'll be hanging on to my almost-monopoly on alpha for the time being.

    T78 925BC: Zoroaster is born in Babylon, and heads to Akkad for his sacred shrine-constructing mission. Next GP will be a GS from Thebes, which is 2T off a library. Hannibal has also adopted the one true faith of Buddhism.

    The two archers guarding Sparta fell with the loss of 1 WC, and a GG was born as a result. He appeared in Memphis, where a WC had also just completed, so that unit became a super-medic and is headed to Corinth where two WCs are healing.

    I'm gaining 1 :gold: / turn at 0% :science:. :smoke:

    Cyrus got alpha, so it's on the open market now. Gave it to Giggles for archery and priesthood. Nobody has monarchy.

    T79 900BC: The Mahabodi is bringing in a whopping 5 :gold: / turn. Woo-hoo. Well, every little helps. Will be able to run 4 scientists next turn (Thebes & Babylon). That combined with capture :gold: from Athens should be enough to limp through to currency.

    T81 850BC: The Greek civilisation has been destroyed! And Athens contains the solution to my economic woes -

    Spoiler :


    5 turns of revolt until those juicy coastal :traderoute: become active. Currently have 3 coastal cities, with room for 4 more - 2 to the N, and 2 S of Athens.

    Time for consolidation, infra and econ focus.

    Unless ... Cyrus built the Mids in Persepolis, so he might be the next target. I'm currently at 1.4 :strength: against him, and can't see any metal in his lands apart from the easily-pillage / capturable one SE of Babylon. Will scout a bit - but 3 WC rushes would be pushing it. Teching to elepults while stabilising seems safer. An anarchy-free switch to Rep would be sweet, though.

    T84 775BC: Cyrus' defences seem to be entirely made of archers, and none of his cities are on hills. Stack will be healed in 1T and will start moving in. 2T until GLH comes online - I'm 1T short of the cash needed for currency, even with mass research builds, so flicked back to 0% :science:.

    T88 675BC: DoWed Cyrus with a stack of 11 WCs. Susa guarded by two archers, took it with one loss. The supermedic has moved in to heal the two combatants (one withdrew), 6 are heading to Persepolis, and 1 sitting unharmed in Susa. I have a WC sitting 2E of Perse peering into it across the ocean. He has 1 spear in there, but has just lost his only source of metal, so I should be fine. 2 archers - will be more by the time I get there.

    Spoiler :


    T89 650BC: Currency is in, and Augustus has declared on Hannibal. Persepolis doesn't have a new archer, and the spear has moved out. Interesting.

    Spoiler :


    There are 6 WCs on that hill SW of Perse, and another behind. So 7 that can attack next turn. The spear could get my scouting WC to the east next turn, if I leave it within range, or might retreat into the city now that my stack has moved up (although they would have been visible last turn, too, so maybe that's not a factor). Obviously it'd be nice not to have to fight the spear to get Perse.

    T90 625BC: I left the units where they were. Cyrus' spear attacked the stack on the hill, killing a WC, but leaving himself in the open and down to 1.0 :strength:. He also now has a swordsman in Perse.

    After losing an 87% battle against a weakened archer, I've spent all my forces and Perse remains standing with a 2.2 :strength: sword garrisoned. 2 more WCs can attack next turn, but one of them is the supermedic. This is cutting it fine!

    T91 600BC: The spear retreated into Perse. Luck went with me this time. The E WC killed the sword at 20% odds. Took 2 WCs, the first of which had Shock, to kill the spear. The Mids are mine! Straight into Rep - seems you don't have to wait for pacification. This also means that the citizens and priests in the revolting cities are all contributing +3 :science: straight away. Never noticed that before, that's really nice.

    Maths in 2T. WIll chop HGs somewhere, probably Babylon. Expect to have 17 cities by the time they're done. Calendar after Maths, as it'll unlock a ton of :commerce: and :).

    T94 525BC: Ecbatana has 3 archers. I can attack with 5 WCs next turn. Don't expect any reinforcements, as one of the archers was whipped between turns. Psargarde will be tougher - 5 archers and a sword. He has a settler ready though, so some will be going off to escort it. New WCs coming to the front.

    T95 500BC: Dammit, 4 archers in Ecbatana now! It's down to 1 pop so definitely can't whip again. Another 2T to get reinforcements in place though. Settled two more cities this turn - Heliopolis SW of Athens on the small peninsula and Elephantine for clam / iron / wheat NW of Thebes. Looks like I beat Hannibal to Heliopolis by 1T. Two more en route.

    T96 475BC:

    Spoiler :

    Never mind, Hannibal, you might have missed out on that nice coastal spot, but the majesty of Leptis surely makes up for it! :lmao:


    Will be able to attack Ecba with 8 WCs next turn. Lost a fight to an immortal E of Athens at 70% odds.

    T97 450BC: Took Ecba with only one loss. First two attackers were C2 and had just over 70%. Both won. Next was C1, another win at 69%. The rest were unpromoted with odds of 40%. One died, the next finished off the last archer at 95%.

    Regroup and head down to Pasa. The settler has gone so there's probably another city down south.

    T98 425BC: Found Cyrus' settler, escorted by a single archer, heading W. Was able to snipe the party from Susa. He has a sword and an axe in Pasa now - must be trading from someone.

    (actually, rereading this, he must have been trading iron all along, otherwise how would he have had the swords I fought earlier?)

    Babylon will take 6T to build the HGs. Might delay it a little to get maximum value. Think I'll wonderspam there a bit - it has a few forests left, and great production. For that reason it'll probably get the NE too - everywhere else, except Thebes, has been whipped relentlessly.

    T102 325BC: Persia is gone. It's definitely time for economy focus. Wealth / failgold builds everywhere, and I need a bunch more workers too.

    Tech situation is boring:

    Spoiler :


    Here's the current empire:

    Spoiler :


    War Chariots are insanely OP. It's 325BC and I have 16 cities. Nearest rival, Asoka, has 7. In 3T I'll have 18, and the HGs will complete. Sure, the economy is in the toilet, but I've captured the two most powerful economic wonders, and have loads of good land. Huayna who?
     
  6. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    @Metaslab: seems going well
     
  7. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Metaslab your writeups are great, so much effort :)

    WCs are crazy OP yep, i disagree a bit with NC's philo to make UU resis always available close.
    Now this will sound stupid cos they are AIs..but it's not very fair to guarantee that with Egypt :b
     
  8. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    @Fippy thanks :)

    I think it helps my play, writing up as I go along - means paying more attention to each decision.

    Established doctrine should always be subject to scrutiny! And yeah, I know what you mean, especially in a case like this. I guess it makes it like "HOF-lite" (not that I play HOF): You're starting with a map that you know will enable a particular exploit, so the challenge isn't about whether you can win, but more about something like squeezing your finish date or end score.
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    First of all, great effort and good game.:goodjob:

    Regarding making UU available, I don't feel that is right too. Therefore, in my game, I haven't prioritized AH. Only one sheep available would never make me beeline AH. I first established a 6 decent city empire and then went to expand.
     
  10. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    thoroughly noted.
    You will get a pig instead of wheat next time so you don't have an excuse :lol:
     
  11. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    Lol, good solution Mizar!

    Well I better make sure I come up with a good endgame to justify my WC-indulgence :)
     
  12. diegobueno

    diegobueno Chieftain

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    monarch normal speed 1911 ad culture victory

    Spoiler :
    Alex atack early and dont want peace, it hurts because i only have charriots that early and he has spearmans-phalanxs i manage to expand and bribe hammi to join, and make peace for stetics
    anyway, i wonderwr on my capital for easy culture points with that stone, and chop the sistine chappel.
    then on modern era i run full caste system artists at one point (30 of them)
    4 religions(shared)-broadway-rock and roll-hollywood-eiffel tower- sistine chappel-sushi+jewel-




     
  13. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    Wanted to play a chariot rush so I played Deity, epic speed, until 1900 BC. Map was the opposite of what you want for a rush, so I quit.

    Spoiler :

    Hammurabi didn't look like a bad victim since bowmen don't have bonus against chariots, but he built a city right on a copper tile, and it was the city that was furthest away from my land. Starting an invasion that way wouldn't have worked, and I can't win without taking his copper. Also he took my ideal horse spot, so I had to get the one SW, which only has fish for food (so I had to go fishing + work boat, which is a huge waste of time for something as urgent as a chariot rush).


    It's clearly a map for a peaceful game, and I got a bunch of cultural victories on Deity already, so I'll skip this one.
     
  14. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Spoiler :
    I took out Hammurabi with WCs + Catapults on normal speed.

    As soon as you scout Hammy it is clear that you depend on RNG far too much for WC rush. Especially as Hammurabi, who is likely to always get boxed in with his starting position will not produce settlers and will produce infrastructure and wonders. That also means you'll most likely face both walls and strong cultural defense in all cities.

    But you can rush Hannibal with WCs. He is stretched enough and has awful peaceweight with Rome. Also he is a land target of Rome. Piggybacking on Praetorians is also an option.

    In my game I killed Hammy and Alex and capped AC and Cyrus (he peacevassaled :D). Since I got too much land too early, I decided to go for space and try to beat my best date so far. Otherwise, 1200AD conquest was easy to achieve, probably even earlier if path of scorching the earth was chosen. If killing 250 units is peaceful and losing 50 is peaceful, then this map is only for peaceful games.

    I might come back and try to rush both to see whether it is possible. But if Pangaea map is not intended for non-peaceful games, then you might have some weird mod installed...
     
  15. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I am glad that we understand each other.:scan:
    But don't put them on hills as I will mine them. :D
     
  16. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    @shakabrade:

    "if Pangaea map is not intended for non-peaceful games, then you might have some weird mod installed"

    I'm pretty sure we'll all agree that cultural victory is way easier on Pangea, due to religion spread. Regarding this map...

    Spoiler :
    This map allows for 6 cities peacefully. Put it together with a spiritual leader, and going for a cultural victory is a very attractive option (the easiest one IMO, since you have just one close neighbor which also makes a peaceful game easier).

    Of course you could do something else, such as the WC-catapult war you did. Or a mids game that leads to winning lib race and maybe cuirs later on, when Hammy's land is full of wonders. Either way, I wanted to try a chariot rush, and this map isn't good for it. Of course not many maps allow a chariot rush on Deity, but this one certainly doesn't.
     
  17. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Well, if you cook the map with all the peacemongers, yes Pangaea would be better for culture date but in a normal game your low power would most certainly make you a target or at least biting your nails to the end of the game. On the other hand in a normal uncooked game, it is possible to have religious lovefest at the continents mapscript and games often end up Hindu against Buddhists and one stray Christian or Confu guy. Therefore it is not a risky play to adopt religion when both of the people on your continent are probably of the same faith (also it is not that difficult to convert the other one). That also helps you to get the end tech - Nationalism as you are Friendly and can go around WFYABTA.

    Although I am no expert on culture dates, I'd say that Panagea is better for the win date and continents for consistency. Also, I am very biased as I prefer consistency and practically my only goal in civ is having game under total control. Some people like win dates, some high scores, some win rates. Matter of taste.
     
  18. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    @DrCron
    Spoiler :
    the map allows peaceful building and breaking out, you have both horses and iron available.
    It's up to the player, the options are there.
    Tailoring a map for an easy rush on deity is not the intention here, games on IMM are already too easy going :)
     
  19. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    Dunno what you could possibly mean by this :p

    Anyway here's "act 3"

    Spoiler :
    T105 250BC I'm making 305 bpt @ 100% :science:, which is nice. Problem is I'm only able to break-even at 0% :science:.

    Some failgold floating around. I would like to get monarchy and some gold from Asoka, but he's the worst enemy of Giggles, who is the only other buddhist (Hannibal has become a heathen hindu). I want to keep Giggles sweet so that I don't have to worry about my eastern border. Got him to pleased by gifting resources, but I know he can still plot at pleased. Shouldn't be a problem though - he and Asoka are staring daggers at one another, and Augustus and Hannibal have been at war forever. Augustus seems to be winning.

    Economy at 1AD:

    Spoiler :


    General update T120 125AD: The last few turns have felt a bit directionless after the single-minded "build WCs, smash, try not to go on strike" that ran through most of the BCs.

    As predicted, it's been all about infra. Immediately after the war I could barely switch more than a couple of cities off wealth-builds to get more basic infra (granaries, libraries, workers) up. Workers have been flat-out, chopping and building improvements. Land is looking pretty good now, but still far too many weak tiles being worked.

    AI tech pace seems slow, with few trading opportunities. Got construction and poly from Giggles in 200BC, and monarchy from Augustus in 1AD. Everything else has been self-teched.

    Built some wonders in Babylon: HGs 275BC, MoM 25BC, GLib 100AD. Also got an academy from Edwin Hubble, who was born 25BC. Working on NE.

    Overview:

    Tech:

    Spoiler :


    Diplo:

    Spoiler :

    Two pairs of worst enemies either side is nice.


    I'm on 37.34% land and 37.45% pop. Dom seems the way to go. Don't know when any AI will be prepared to trade Feud, and it's not on my immediate path.

    Empire overview:

    Spoiler :

    Just that little clump of jungle around Susa and the other eastern ex-Perisan city still to clear.


    My two best cities -

    Thebes, current capital

    Spoiler :

    Needs more food. Will probably finish HE here - have part-built it in a few places.


    Babylon, which will probably become the capital in time for Buro.

    Spoiler :

    Thebes still has higher base :commerce:, even taking the +8 from the palace into account. But Babylon has much better :hammers:, and good :commerce:, so I think that tips the balance overall. Still not sure - 9T to build the palace in Babylon, which might be better spent on something else.


    When NE is done in Babylon that'll bring in some decent failgold. Have also done some Moai-spamming. Will probably finish them in Pi-Rameses to the N.

    Got the Music GA this turn. GP due from Babylon next turn. 50% chance for a scientist. A long GAge or two with this many worked tiles will be huge, so hoping for a philo-bulb next turn.

    It might not look like it from the screenies, but the economy has improved immensely. Being able to break even at 0% :science: with only 5 of my 20 cities building wealth is significant progress. And even at 0% :science:, it'll only take 3T to research CoL. Rep-scientists FTW!

    Longer-term: I can see a WE in Hannibal's land. Think I might skip elepults. I have construction, but not HBR, and still am not really in a position to start building a new army. So I think it'll be cuirs. Predictable, moi?

    T121 150AD: A Prophet. Meh. More GAge-fodder, I guess. Next one due in 20T (not factoring in impending acceleration from NE, pacifism, and GAge, so will probably be much sooner than that).

    Once CoL is in I'll take philo, and whip / chop some courthouses. Will need to make a decision about moving the palace at this point, as even though the NE won't be finished, the decision about where to build them will depend on whether I'm looking at distance from Thebes, or from Babylon.

    T123 200AD: CoL is in, started courthouses in largeish cities that are far from both Thebes and Babylon. Thought about going CS next - both that and philo will take 8T at 0% :science: - but my research is distributed throughout my empire, and comes in a form that isn't enhanced by Buro, so getting a GAge going sooner seems better.

    Giggles is prepared to trade MC this turn, but the only thing I have that he wants is aesthetics, which is nowhere near enough. Ah - but I could sell it to him for the 80 :gold: he has, then next turn could offer music and/or literature in trade.

    T124 225AD: Arg, Giggles can't "see" music. No forges for me yet.

    T126 275AD: Augustus came begging for literature, gave it to him. Should be able to get feudalism from him next turn.

    T127 300AD: NE done in Babylon, started palace. Augustus wants music, CoL, and 140 :gold: for feudalism. Bit steep! Giggles doesn't have feud, so it does at least mean I should be able to use it to get MC from him next turn. Annoying though, I had just enough cash to crank up research and finish philo this turn. GAge will be marginally delayed.

    T128 325AD: That's more like it. More NE failgold came in (there was a little bit last turn, no idea why it was split like that), so now I have plenty to finish philo. GAge next turn! Feud to Giggles for MC + 70 :gold:.

    T129 350AD: This feels like the beginning of the final act. Went round and finished a bunch of buildings with the whip, as I'll be in caste system for a while.

    In Thebes, Miguel de Cervantes finally put down his quill. With his comic story of the delusional knight-errant Don Quixote, he knew that he had created a form of storytelling that had never been seen before, something so unprecedented that it couldn't be described by any of the existing labels for the literary arts. This was something new, something ... novel.

    With his dying breath, he bequeathed his soul to the continuing glory of the Egyptian people. His work spread instantly through the empire, inspiring the population to greater feats of industrial and commercial productivity, and ensuring that other men and women of genius would soon follow in his wake.

    Economy before starting GAge (haven't been round to optimise micro):

    Spoiler :


    Economy after starting GAge:

    Spoiler :


    After firing the GAge I made a civic switch (caste / paci - also took vasssalage for the 15 free units. Not building military atm. Will still be able to take Buro as soon as CS is done.)

    2T until next GP from Babylon. Also starving Athens for scientists. After micro adjustments, CS is 6T away at 0% :science:. Palace will be done the following turn.

    Giggles will trade machinery. Windmills would be good. But the only thing I have that I could offer for it is philo. Don't think anybody's going to challenge me for Lib, but will give myself a bit more of a headstart before trading it.

    T131 400AD: Isaac Newton born in Babylon, but of course he wants to bulb compass. Annoying. He can sleep for a while. Next one in 4T. I also now have enough cash to get CS next turn. Can't switch straight to Buro, but I need irrigation too, so it makes sense.

    T132 425AD: Now that CS is in, Newton can bulb paper.

    Lit + 135 :gold: to Giggles for HBR. Got 25 of it back by selling him my map.

    T133 450AD: A glorious event in Egyptian history - the last jungle is cleared!

    GS born in Babylon, bulbed Edu to within 1T. Music and CS to Giggles (he was 6T off CS) in exchange for machinery, map, and 20 :gold:.

    T136 520AD: Am now in Buro, and palace has moved to Babylon. A GS born in Athens, who joins with the existing prophet to extend the GAge. Lib is secure, so am going straight to nationalism for Taj, then gunpowder, rather than finishing lib to 1T. Moai were built in Pi-Rameses last turn, bringing enough failgold to power through Nat at 100% :science:. Will take 3T.

    Switched specialists in Babylon to merchants. Will probably go for military civics after the next GP.

    T137 540AD: Asoka has built the AP.

    T139 580AD: Nat completed. Machinery to Augustus for theology, map and gold. Sold mono to Hannibal for 100 :gold:.

    T141 620AD: Another GS in Babylon. Switched to slavery / theo. Will go Police State, and maybe vassalage, once everywhere is building cuirs. Kept Buro for now to ensure Taj gets built within the GAge. Oh and Rome and Carthage are at war again. Judging by the way his :strength: is dipping, I don't think Hannibal is long for this world.

    T146 720AD: Lib ---> MT is in. Selected rifling beeline, but research is basically done now. Taj in 3T. Switched to wealth everywhere except Babylon and Thebes, to upgrade the WEs I've been building. After Taj will go PS / vassalage / slavery / theo to wrap things up. Hoping for a quick finish.
     
  20. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    Not really. I actually prefer it when the map isn't full of peace-mongers, otherwise it's a very tight race since the AI goes for the Music race and Sistine Chapel too, making the whole thing more stressful. As long as you are boxed in, sharing borders with just 1 AI (fairly frequent on Pangea), keeping the peace isn't so hard.
     

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