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NC CLXXX - Hatshepsut - Egypt

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,701
    Location:
    berkshire, england
    Emperor marathon.
    Spoiler :

    WC rushed Babylon and Carthage, Oracle alphabet, storming ahead in everything, top in everything including army, annihilated Greece, capped India then Gilgamesh gets AP victory 340ad :mad:
     
  2. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 31, 2016
    Messages:
    237
    @pigswill
    Spoiler :

    This is why i usually play with diplomatic victory disabled, lol. AP is such BS.
     
  3. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    yea, the whole AP concept is pretty crappy.
     
  4. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,701
    Location:
    berkshire, england
    Emperor marathon
    Spoiler :
    Having lost to Sumerian AP victory in 350ad I reloaded from 40ad save, whipped Jewish missionaries for all my Buddhist cities which gave me the most votes (even though I remained Buddhist) and crushed all opposition with WEs/maces/trebs getting me a comfortable domination victory in 560ad for a respectable 349k score


    Anyone claiming that WCs are over-powered probably hasn't met a formation spear in a walled hilltop city ;).

    Marathon speed is however seriously over-powered.
     
  5. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    yea those are pesky but I almost never encounter level4-spears, needs siege.
    good game btw.
     
  6. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Yeah good stuff pigswill :goodjob:. Was wondering if you were going to replay after getting trolled by the cheapest win-condition in the game.

    The end of mine:

    Spoiler :
    T149 780AD: Taj complete.

    Got engineering from Giggles 2T ago - +1 road movement will be handy.

    Took the mass wealth-builds off and went back to normal production. Have upgraded 7 WEs, and will be able to do a couple more each turn. Whipping will get a swarm of units ready quicker. Will attack west first.

    Civics - Babylon has 57 base :commerce: and 42 base :hammers:. So switching out of Buro loses 29 :commerce: and 21 :hammers: each turn. Only 7 of my cities are actively engaged in cuirspam right now. This will increase very soon when more rax and stables are completed. So will take vassalage in a few turns when I get more from it. Am also setting up Byblos as a missionary-pump to make sure I get max benefit from theo. So only one change this turn, which is from representation to police state.

    Sold Hannibal MC for 60 :gold:, so that I could make one more upgrade. It won't do him much good. Units are in place, and Leptis and Utica will fall next turn.

    Spoiler :


    Yes, a stack of WCs. Might as well make use of them. Doesn't seem worth upgrading - new cuirs from Thebes start with 9XP (rax, stable, theo, settled GG), and only 2 of the WCs have more than that anyway. Maybe if those two survive the assault on Leptis I'll reward them with new equipment. The rest are fodder.

    T150 800AD: Utica and Leptis fell with no losses. Didn't use the WCs - there were new cuirs within range. WCs have moved to attack Hadrumetum, supported by 1 cuir. Can't reach Carthage itself until the following turn. Western forces should be enough to take Rome too, so am now focusing on massing the eastern stack. Giggles and Asoka both have LBs, and Giggles has pikes.

    T151 820AD: Hannibal wants to capitulate.

    Spoiler :



    Fair enough, I'll take it. Gave him theo for an embargo against Giggles. Start moving troops towards Rome.

    Starting to get city visibility on Giggles. There's a nice forking spot between Shuruppak and Ur - where the worker is standing:

    Spoiler :



    Will attack when I have enough cuirs in position to be (fairly) sure of taking both on T1 of the war - probably 2T from now.

    T152 840AD: DoWed Augustus. Had units in place to hit Hippo and Neapolis. Couldn't see into Hippo last turn - when I moved a cuir next to it I saw that his main stack was in there, so decided to focus on wiping that out. After all the cuirs in range had attacked, he was left with just cats. That's about the right level for WCs - 71.25% odds for a C1 WC against a full-strength cat. After they were all used there was still one cat left - a wounded cuir fininshed the job.

    All new units heading east now.

    T153 860AD: Took Neapolis, which contained the SoZ. All WEs have been upgraded so I spent some cash to upgrade my most experienced WC in Hippo. Took out a small stack of praets and pikes SW of Hippo, and got a new GG for a second supermedic (the existing one is busy in Hippo). Will attack Giggles next turn.

    T154 880AD Caesar refuses to talk. Need a turn of healing before resuming the attack. Forgot to switch to vassalage last turn, made the change this time. Doesn't really make any difference at this stage.

    Got enough EPs on Giggles to see what looks like his main stack, in Uruk, so have switched them to Asoka.

    Spoiler :



    Took Giggles' two northern cities, as planned. Units with movement left head to Ur for healing. Fresh units are starting to take up position for Asoka.

    Combat against Giggles - took a few cuirs to crack his LBs and pike:

    Spoiler :



    T155 900AD: Caesar still won't talk. Only 4 units healed in Hippo. Moved them onto the hill NE of Arretium, which has 3 LBs and a maceman. Hannibal might soften them up with a small mounted stack he has in range. Moving 1NW of that hill might have been better, as it would allow forking of Arretium and Cumae. Rome will be next after those two.

    Going to run 100% EP for a turn, split between Asoka and Giggles - this will give me city visibility on both. Giggles has a stack of 3 mace, 2 xbow, 5 cats and a chariot heading to Ur. I can't reach it due to forest. Have retreated 2N1W, leaving the city empty - better to reattack next turn than take 5 rounds of collateral.

    T157 940AD: Augustus capitulates after I take Arretium. Keeping everything in case I save a turn or two by tripping domination. Was hoping I might be able to wrap up before 1000AD, but it looks like I'll be a few turns over. Either way, this is going to beat my previous best finish date by at least a century.

    Spoiler :


    Great expression there - he looks like a kid who's been denied pudding!


    Everybody head east!

    Retook Ur. Lost the first four battles at 80%+. I only have one, quite wounded, cuir in there, and he has a WE in range, so it might change hands again.

    T158 960AD: Ur did indeed cycle from yellow to purple and back again. Perhaps I'm spreading my forces a bit thin. But I will be DoWing Asoka next turn.

    T160 1000AD: After sending so many little stacks at Ur, Giggles' cities are now very poorly defended. I'll get Kish next turn.

    In India, Vijayanagra fell with 3 losses. 6 cuirs have moved N to take poorly-defended Agra, the rest are gathering in Vija for the assault on Delhi. Can't see a big stack anywhere.

    T161 1010AD: Agra is down. Delhi in 2T. Have units forking Khazak and Nibru, but doubt I can take both next turn. Western armies have arrived in Pasagarde, plenty to swamp both opponents.

    T162 1020AD: Had to defy a "stop the war" resolution last turn, but happy-cap is so high that it hasn't made a difference.

    Didn't notice the forest E of Khazak, so could only attack Nibru.

    T163 1030AD: Turns out that was enough. Giggles capitulated, and now my Dom percentages look like this:

    Spoiler :



    And that should do it. India will get to retain its status as an independent nation. Probably. I might as well take Delhi, as I'm parked outside.

    Afterwards -

    Spoiler :



    I'll take that. So what will the official VC be, Domination or Conquest?

    Spoiler :



    Spoiler :



    T164 1040AD: Domination. Score 435355. That's a personal best on both counts, by some distance. Previous best score was 377269, and best date 1260AD. :D

    Far from the earliest finish date this NC though!

    Thanks for all the comments, whether on the game, the writeups, or the general issue of UU-ethics. Special thanks for Mizar for hosting, and of course to Hatty!
     
  7. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,819
    Almost finished with my deity game..

    Spoiler :

    I think some interesting things happened in my game compared to a couple other write-ups that I've read. Hannibal declared war on Alex really early and didn't expand north towards me. The result of this was Babylon getting 6 cities instead of 3-4. Cyrus also got boxed in with just 4 and eventually peace vassaled to Gilgamesh. Hannibal beat up Alex and capped him shortly after he got Feudalism. Maybe I should have monitored the situation more closely and tried to intervene. I'm not sure I ever had a good enough tech advantage on Hannibal to bribe him off but at the very least I may have been able to throw some techs at Alex to help him out.

    None of that really hurt me much in the long run though. More details will follow when I finish.
     
  8. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    @Metaslab, nice game and like the writeup, it looked like it would be over soon :)
     
  9. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Well since I just got BUG mod to work I decided to play this game after a rather long time of not having played Civ. And boy, that did not go too well so far :lol:

    Settings: Immortal, Normal Speed, No Huts + No Events

    Spoiler :
    375 BC. I settled 3 other sites myself (would need to find out how to make screenshots to show :lol: and have just made temp peace with Hannibal after attempting to chariot rush him. I took two cities of him including his capital (had loads of my guys picked off due to careless play so I got delayed...). Can somebody tell me how terrible a result that is considering it already being 375 BC? I am still teching and have a bunch of cottages up (will get more with newly whipped workers) and only Asoka and Cyrus are a little ahead in tech, so despite the date I feel that it was not actually that terrible? Like I said I have not played in quite a while so my feeling for what is and isn't a good time for this or that is kind of blurry. :lol:
     
  10. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,993
    Location:
    Croatia
    Game:

    Spoiler :
    Empire was expanded to 6 cities as land was too good for straight WC rush and we attacked Hammurabi with Catapults and WCs. Why Hammy, because he was boxed in and had built Mids, MoM and maybe something else, but that is not that relevant. He also had Buddhist shrine. We built HG before rush. For only 6 cities, it is not much, but we had nothing else to build at that time so it is fine. Thebes needed health anyway.

    Spoiler :



    Hammy was killed early in the ADs. Then, cities were waited to come out of revolt and very long GAge (36T or 48T) was triggered.:D (MoM is great). Again, those GAs made us go for Caste workshops and they did well again. Empire managed to recover from war and MT was libbed around 600AD.

    Spoiler :



    Spoiler :



    Cuir rush against Greece was done and Greek were done for. Generals advised a small cease fire to get better angle. Our friend Cyrus was impressed and pledged loyalty. Fool didn't know that act alone and not our friendship saved his neck.

    Spoiler :




    Since no Whips were involved, economy was strong and shortly after, Cavalry started riding around. Carthage was obliterated by AC in Pune wars but soon after AC himself had to kneel, kept a head on his shoulders at least. Year was 1220AD. World Domination was close.

    Spoiler :



    Army was already near Asoka to get that pre 12XXD domination but we then looked at shiny cities, hard working people at all those farms and workshops making that happen. Windmills turned our focus and we stopped. No more blood. We go for Orion's belt.

    Spoiler :



    And we went.

    Spoiler :



    Being a good vassal of Egyptian ruler is all about helping master ascend to Orion. On our way there, vassals provided 5 techs. But master is kind too. One Great Scientist was gifted to Persia to make an Academy or rush a research. Don't know what exactly happened but that shaved some turns off Computers while it would be negligible in our empire. :D As Augustus was relatively slow, he was tasked with stuff needed in more distant future, like Fission and Ecology.

    Spoiler :



    (Notice the production without Mining Inc.).


    Finished this one day after map was released, but Metaslab did really nice write-up :goodjob: so I waited him to finish. :D
     
  11. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    900
    Hmm, you make Deity look very easy...
     
  12. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,993
    Location:
    Croatia
    Normally, it is easy if your early game is good and if you make right strategic calls. Then you are uncontested in mid and late game as your tech lead is too huge and your wars are quick and cheap as you lose lot less units. So, not only that you get better units if you play better, but also you battle against worst units. Therefore we see conquests and dominations clustered at 1200-1300AD, and then we have this gap until 1500AD. I remember that, as my skill improved I first struggled to get 1800AD victories, then I jumped to 1500-1600AD and then to 1100-1200AD. In 1800AD victories, you battle mostly Infantry (with slow Artillery or wait for Bombers), in 1500AD, mostly rifles (with cannons or at least Airships) and in 1200AD, mostly Longbows (with Cuirs and Cavs). Of course, other dates happened too, but there definitely is a pattern.

    tl;dr
    Better early game makes this game seem easy. Good warring at tech parity makes this game seem hard.
     
  13. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    718
    Space victory on a Pangea? It's like we don't even know you anymore :lol: Seriously though, you do make it look easy.

    I'm debating whether to re-load this a second time on Deity.

    Spoiler :
    I likewise saw no need to abuse WCs, ended up in a very powerful position sniping a couple cities from Hannibal for minimal cost while he was getting his ass kicked by Praetorians. So 8-9 cities, all of them strong, with excellent leader traits. Only to have Gilgamesh plot on me and refuse my request for a small gift at pleased. Even though we shared no borders and there were several AIs he disliked. Re-loaded from a good 30 turns earlier to try and handle the diplo better, same thing happens :sad:

    I'm probably exaggerating this in my mind but I feel like Gilgamesh declares on me in every game he's in...
     
  14. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

    Joined:
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    718
  15. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Messages:
    87
    So I started the game on emp late last night and played through about 1200 B.C. before losing my game to an automatic update restarting my computer. I'm going to give it a try again later because I've been getting crushed lately and this seems like an easier start. Took the time to replay the intro turns to uncover the map and jog my memory a bit.

    Some initial impressions, hadn't been taking screens along the way
    Spoiler :
    I went with the SIP and went straight for mining and bw. I met hammy quickly and found his city almost immediately. Managed to steal his first worker while it was developing his corn tile. Based on distance I picked him as a target before I even met another civ.

    I think I did something like mining > bw > ah > pottery > writing for my techs

    Second city went down 1s of the wheat to the east, already had the road connected and had the wheat farm ready 1T after memphis was founded, the cultural pops were really nice for that.

    I remember being slow to the next settler and not being happy about it lol. I had decided on the fish/stone location but it felt like a slow start up and like it hurt the overall war effort.

    For one I had to squeeze fishing in, which I had unfortunately not planned for and it seemed like every turn I wasnt building a work boat was a wasted turn. It was really a disaster. Under better management though it seems like this might be the smart place for a third city. It helps push cultural borders south, picks up the stone. Food is an issue though, if you got the city to size 5 you could work the grass hills, the fish, and the quarry for 2T WCs but getting the city up to 5 looks like its going to take a while.

    I noticed in I think it was Metas writeup that he did something similar so I'm going to take another look at that but I was just curious how people felt about going for the stone in fish early compared to lets say the sheep in the east.

    After the third city went up I worked on growing it as best I could and moved straight to WCs. I poached a second worker off Hammy on his cows with my first chariot. I moved on his second city around 1380 BC which I remember specifically because it was later than I had hoped. My stack was about 6 strong and I got off easy and only had 2 casualties vs 3 bowmen. By the time I was able to regroup take a shot at Babylon he was sitting with 4 defenders and I wasn't sure what to do. I had about 7 WCs without any significant number of reinforcements coming soon. Babylon was size 4 and I expected Hammy would just keep building bows.

    Before I could really decide how to proceed the game closed itself and my laptop started doing its updates and I called it a night, frustrated and a little defeated.

    Basically I'm going to go for the same strategy again, 3 cities then rush Hammy with WCs but I noticed some interesting differences in my game and some of the write ups I saw. For starters I got his first worker improving its first tile which hurt Hammy in a few ways. He didn't found a religion, and he didn't build stonhenge as I've seen mentioned. It also put him at war early which may have led to him building more units than he generally would have overall. Could I actually benefit from waiting to try and steal a worker, or possibly not stealing one at all in order to potentially inherit an early religion and a wonder?

     
  16. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,819
    Crazy how much differently these games always play out.

    Spoiler :

    Hannibal declared on Alex very early in my game and steamrolled him, eventually capitulating him when he got Feudalism. Due to Hannibal being at war, Hammurabi was able to settle 6 cities instead of getting boxed in. Cyrus, however, got boxed in with just 4 cities and peace vassaled to Gilgamesh.

    I attacked Hammurabi with cats, war chariots, and some swords/axes. I took 3 cities including Babylon which was really nice and had some good wonders, but i eventually had to stop because i knew he was about to peace vassal to Hannibal (and there was also a "stop the war" vote that was going to wreck my cities if i ignored it). He did so shortly after i ended the war.

    Capturing the MoM and Parthenon allowed me to win Lib, but i had to take Nationalism instead of MT to beat Hannibal. Teched the rest, upgraded some war elephants to Cuirs, and eventually took everyone out. Having to fight Hannibal + Hammurabi + Alex and then Cryus + Gilgamesh was annoying though. Gilgamesh got rifles in the middle of that war. Fortunately i had cannons on the way, but it really slowed the war down while i was waiting for them all to cross the map and get to the front.
     
  17. SittinDown

    SittinDown Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, USA
    Finally playing this one out:

    Monarch - no events - no huts

    Spoiler :

    Explored around, found Babylon. Barbs are no problem.

    Founded 1W. By turn 26, founded Memphis 2N of the horse, next to the Wheat.

    By turn 50, founded city 3 - but got boxed into my area.

    Started churning out War Chariots.

    By turn 86, I took out Carthage. Looking at Babylon now, before they get a good squeeze on me.

     
  18. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Messages:
    87
    Took a second shot tonight played up to 500 BC, emp normal speed

    Spoiler :
    Funny enough in my second attempt I still attacked Hammy at 1340 BC with 6 WCs. It went much easier this time though. I caught his second city with only 1 bowmen and managed to take babylon about 5 turns later in a 7 v 3. At this point I had WCs coming out fast and I ended up over building a little and had a few turns of strike before I moved on the gems and gold persia had to offer. Persia's last city was far away and at the time I thought I might try and move on Carthage so I made peace with Cyrus and have been trying to salvage my economy

    When the war was over I was running -19gpt at 0% and after several turns of shifting towards commerce I still have a surplus of a measly 10 gold per turn at 0% and -92 at 100%. I have 9 cities with my eye on 2 more spots, and I'm very spread out because of my conquest. I'm still pretty new to emp so having to overhaul a completely dead economy isn't something I have had to deal with much in the past. I attached a game save, if anyone has time and can take a look at it and give me some pointers on how I can turn this around I'd appreciate it. If not I'll just slag through it a few times tomorrow and see if I can make anything work!
     

    Attached Files:

  19. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Messages:
    87
    @Shakabrade It's really cool to see someone just completely dominate Deity with a good start like this. If it wouldn't be too much trouble would you mind posting a save of your game? One of the weaker parts of my game is making the most use of my starting land and getting the chance to see where someone better than me settled and trying to figure out why its a better spot helps a lot.
     
  20. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 31, 2016
    Messages:
    237
    @bdubbs

    Spoiler :
    I looked at the save, looks like the game is going pretty well. There's a couple things you can do to improve your economy in the short term.

    1) build roads connecting you to the other AI's. You're only getting+2 trade routes in two cities. You don't have sailing so you need road connections to the people you have open borders with you. You also don't have all your cities connected to eachother (but you already know this). If you get +2 in all your cities that will improve things.

    2) delete all of your warriors. You're paying 12 in unit upkeep. Can send your war chariots back
    as garrison in cities that need the happiness. I count 7 warriors, maybe more than i missed, so thats at least 7 gpt saved by deleting them.

    3) chop a library in dur-kurgalzu

    you don't need a granary in this city yet, it'll grow fast enough. Chop a library first and a run a couple scientist specialists there asap. You want to get your academy out but you can't do that in your cap since its too busy building pyramids.

    once you do that and once your cottages grow out a bit your econ should be in good enough shape to hit currency in a reasonable amount of time, which will give you another +18 once you get all of your trade connections up and running, plus a bit more since you can build gold.
     

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