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NC CLXXX - Hatshepsut - Egypt

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mizar, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You are still in great position @bdubbs.
    Your cities and road connections just need a little fine tuning :)

    With 1 road around Giggles you can be connected to him for foreign trade routes.

    Memphis & Akkad should use 2 scientists, more workers might be useful but starting on some gp points and getting beakers is def. better now.

    For Akkad, losing a little food does not matter. This would be totally fine until currency:
    Spoiler :
    We can worry about that worker & food later.

    Cre libraries are good, you can get them in more cities (like Persepolis).
    Better now than workers & settlers.

    Overall if you focus on them and use some scientists, and get connected to Giggles for foreign trade routes, getting currency should not be too difficult.
    Go slow on settlers or worker builds until then, do not worry about some negative food in cities, focusing on what can give you some science.

    I would also let Heliopolis build Pyras failgold with full hammers (barracks not needed anyways), and Thebes can work it's cottages and / or scientists.

    Oops x-post with Nate ;)
     

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  2. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    yeah, definitely build more libraries. hatty is creative, too, they don't even cost that much.

    its emperor though... forget fail gold, i think he has about a 70% chance of getting the mids if he keeps up max production in thebes. although come to think of it, heliopolis has a lot of hammer tiles.
     
  3. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Hi bdubbs, no problem, here you go. Fortunately I have kept some saves.

    Regarding settling, I keep it simple. Settle to get most food everywhere. It is much easier with Creative leader. Regarding improving, improve only what you'll work. I cannot say that I think a lot when it comes to settling (SIP or not being an exception).
     

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  4. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Spoiler :
    Yeah, completely different. But that is Pangaea. I would almost ban it :lol: like Random huts and Events as Pangea can be so much different for different playthroughs. That doesn't mean it is good, as one person typically plays it only once, but only that it is difficult to compare your game to the other players. For instance, I got 2 great wonders in Babylon and that made the game so much easier than if those wonders were at the other end of the map.
     
  5. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    Thanks @Fippy its been fun moving up to emp difficulty but I feel like on monarch and below things like trade routes and great people can basically be ignored and you can still get easy wins with this kind of start so its still something I'm trying to incorporate into my game. I'm going to peruse the strategy articles before I continue because I know I'm going to need to get more comfortable with both to start finding consistent success at emp.

    Is there any rule of thumb as to when its better to run a scientist over a tile? I can see how its easy to weigh your need for a mine or a scientist. Or if you didn't need as much food in a city and you ran one over a farm tile or unworked tiles or water tiles, but are there ever situations where it makes sense to run a scientist over a cottage?

    And @Shakabrade thanks for the save, a lot of you deity players don't think much about where you place cities but I think its because you guys just naturally recognize strong spots when you see them. Hell compared to a competent emp player I'm a total nub haha
     
  6. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    Update to 125 AD

    Spoiler :
    All is well for the most part, after currency I was able to get a sustainable economy going, managed to trade currency for all my back techs + some gold and took aesthetics, calendar, and literature. I'm 4 turns from the parthenon and carthage is the only civ with aesthetics, ill probably trade it soon. Great Lib is 10 turns in Babylon, and I missed out on the MoM to giggles, 75 AD. The plan was going to be research music and start a long golden age with the artist, but now I think I'll just take CoL and work my way towards Bureaucracy.
     
  7. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

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    Really I usually only run scientists if I'm looking to get a great scientist. Even if I do get the mids and run rep I think unless you're looking to get an academy or a key bulb (or more than one) you're better off working tiles to get -the production in place you need for infrastructure (include whipping).

    I play on Immortal but from watching AbsoluteZeros playthroughs on Youtube I think he does it the same on Deity and when he was still regularly playing Civ4 he was an incredible player, although maybe not so much anymore since he doesn't play as often anymore.
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Rep scientists are really strong. They can be your primary source of beakers if you get the Mids early.
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Try thinking more analytically and try assessing return of investment. In most cities, you only need granary and maybe library. Rep scientists are incredibly powerful in early game, as you can whip an army and painlessly transition to teching. You get 6 yield and also some GPP. Also, what is important, you can skip 2 improvements per city, which is a lot of worker turns and those hammers which would go to workers can become army, infra or beakers. Even non Rep scientists can save your hide after prolongued warfare. Not to mention that there are situations where there is better to run Monarchy and Caste to get 7-8 GScientists in your capital in BCs.

    Regarding AZ, I really like his videos and learned some stuff from him, but he gets away with huge amount of strategic and micro mistakes just because he is very aggressive with the whip which is OP mechanic and also because he usually doesn't give up in situations where people like to rage-quit (BTW, that is the most valuable lesson I have learned from him). I have realized that lot of people think that what he does is how the game should be played simply because that is almost only easily visible source of Deity wins for most of people. Well, don't be misled as this game can be played so much better. I don't want to say that AZ is misleading people on purpose. But he is also a guy who will build Great Lighthouse for 3 coastal cities, or Oracle Caste System while going for HA rush (which then fails). And that is one thing that being consistently good at deity doesn't allow: you must be able to break the patterns in your game. It is funny that in my case a lot of improvements came after year or two of pausing as I could identify that I was making many decisions out of habit and not by real analytical thinking. But if I played for youtube and had to keep pace, I would probably make many more mistakes too. So, keep in mind that AZ doesn't have enough time to really consider the big picture and has to resort to patterns and habits. So, what you see is not near his A game. It is probably his C game. Fortunately, there are A games on these forums.

    Also, you cannot ever become bad at Deity because you haven't played for a long time as there is no build in civilization or mechanics like in Starcraft. You only take more time for couple of games. That is simply a way of looking at the game, something like riding a bike. If you want to find incredible Deity wins, look for Snaaty for instance. He is by far the most adaptive Deity player in my book. Also, what helped me the most are Kossin's Daily rounds. There he covered his transition from Imm to Deity and series is full of analysis.
     
  10. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    For your game, to reach currency in reasonable time ;)

    When you have 10 cities after rushing, it's rather unimportant if they are size 5 or 4, or if they use negative food for some time.
    Important is squeezing out those beakers for key techs, those help you managing your new big empire.

    Scientists are good with limited worker turns, they help you teching without building a new cottage. In your game you also have Cre as bonus for cheap libraries to use them.

    Some examples: an early academy for a commerce strong Cap, it's what i would consider "very important great person" if it's using stuff like river cottages or gold mines :)

    GP points can be very valuable, an academy can add many more beakers than taking care of 2 more cottages early.
    Bulbing Philo with a GS, also very common cos Paci can snowball you.
    (and on high levels, helps avoiding AIs going for Liberalism)

    Or if you already have CoL and can use Caste, and really struggle with gold for a big empire.
    You can work on a great merchant who usually solves such problems easily, if your city of choice drops cottages for that task it's surely worth doing so.

    Your need for early scientists comes with plans / experience on how to use great scientists, mostly.
    And sometimes they are just the fastest way for reaching key techs.
     
  11. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    As others have commented, it's pretty amazing to see the variety of ways this map has played out. To be expected with different levels going on, but I guess Pangaea shakes it up that bit more.

    @bdubbs - again I'm just echoing existing comments here, but definitely +1 to the main points made about scientists. Main use is strategically squeezing out Great Scientists for an academy (usually with your first one) and bulbs (on the way to Liberalism is a common strategy - they can rush Paper, Philosophy, and Education), but their use can become more flexible with a CRE leader's half-price libraries, and even moreso if you have the Mids and are able to run early Representation. Shakabrade specifically mentioned saving your hide after prolonged warfare - this is exactly what happened in my game. In my 3rd update you can see that conquest absolutely tanked my economy, but in 125AD thanks to specialists I was able to pull in 121:science:/turn with the slider set to 0% and thereby maintain a tech lead.

    @shakabrade - thanks for the kind comment under your write-up :D. It's kind of ironic that you waited for me to finish though - I actually deliberately held off my last updates because I felt like I was hogging the thread!
     
  12. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    Thanks everyone for the bits of advice, I was able to use roads to get better trade routes, work some scientists, get an academy in thebes, have a couple golden ages, and did some wonder building. I was inefficient somewhere because I didn't have my attack ready until 1160 AD it didn't go well.

    Spoiler :
    Gilgamesh was definitely the strongest opponent on the map so I picked him for my first target. My initial army was split into 3 stacks, 1 stack of 10, and 2 of 9. The larger stack could attack the turn I DoW on Giggles, the other two were 2T out. His longbows were all CD 2 so I took some pretty good losses. I peeled off some full strength cuirs and a couple reinforcements and got a stack of about 10 in range of the 4th city when Alexander declared on me. I found myself with only a few defenders in each captured city, losing cuirs to WEs, and using all my fresh units trying to fend off Alexander.

    Meanwhile Giggles either made peace with India or decided to go on the defensive because a huge stack of swords, crossbows and catapults came in and rolled the couple cuirs I had left defending at each of his cities. At this point I only had a handful of cuirs left, and weak city defenses. In a moment of weakness I rage quit and now the most recent save I have is the turn I declared war on giggles.

    After taking a look at my game just now I can see a few big mistakes I made. For starters I don't have any forges. Even my cities that are hill rich only produce 20-23 hammers per turn, which is a minimum 5T on cuirs. I don't have enough production to maintain a prolonged campaign, I can compensate for that with the whip but I have 3 cities with decent production that are slow growers that Id be concerned about whipping even once.

    On top of all that I embarrassingly never even built the HE in one of my production cities. So with all this in mind I'm seeing that it is incredibly unlikely I win some kind of domination/conquest victory with cuirs > cavalry. Even if I get whip happy and micro my units better if I choose this war with Giggles and cap him I see it exhausting my resources, risking a war with alexander, and eliminating my current tech lead.

    With that in mind I'm thinking of pivoting my strategy into destroying Cyrus and Asoka. I really need Cyrus to go because all my Persian cities are still getting +2 unhappy from wishing to rejoin the motherland and its really been a pain. He only has one city and a handful of BC era units so I'm thinking of sending Alexander after him for nationalism so I don't have to take a diplo hit.

    I was toying with the idea of taking out Asoka with the intention of taking his land and eliminating him completely but after checking out his land that's a terrible idea. Delhi is a great city but other than that I'm shocked by just how bad his cities really are. He has tons of grassland with no cottages on it, tons of hills that are unimproved, and all of his fps have farms on them.

    BTW Giggles is already at war with Asoka and has been for some time so I'll have a little assistance there. So new plan, bait Alexander to eliminate cyrus, and cap Asoka. I'm hoping to be able to do this with the 28 cuirs I have, plus the ones I'm building with a light whipping at most. Simultaneously I'll start getting forges in the cities they belong in as well as look for any other infrastructure I've overlooked, work on a couple unis and tech towards rifles and cannons and see if I have better luck with that.

    I probably won't play it out until sometime tomorrow. Any thoughts or suggestions?

     
  13. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    @bdubbs

    Spoiler :
    Alex is a pretty aggressive AI and can be bribed to declare war on you. See here for more detail. Before leaving your home territory with your army you might consider trying to get a 10 turn peace treaty with Alex by begging for some low amount of gold. I think the easiest solution, though, would have been to invade Alex first. No need to take on the biggest, protective AI first. Work up to him.

    Forges aren't worth it if you're trying to win with cuirs. Maybe build one in your HE city and your capital. They're really expensive if not industrious. Don't be concerned about the whip. :whipped::whipped::whipped:

    You can use captured workers and some of your current workers to improve this land. And flood plain farms are great. Remember: :whipped::whipped::whipped:. Take that land.

    How are you trying to win? Dom/conquest? Or take out a few AIs and win diplo/space?

     
  14. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    @Benjinal I was looking for a conquest win, and I just might get it but its not looking great for me at the moment

    update to 1790 AD
    Spoiler :
    I decided to go with the plan of picking the soft target first and working my way up to giggles. Alexander ended up being a terrible attack dog and failed to take Cyrus's lone city. India capped pretty fast and I realized I had time to cap alex before gunpowder so I did. As soon as I started that war giggles started plotting on me. I got rifling in near the end of my war with Greece and followed a rifles/cannons strategy. It went well in the sense that I was never in any danger of losing the war, and it went terribly in the sense that I wasn't thinking about cap mechanics and left persia alive with 1 city. Between that and the 2 civs I already capped I had to take 10 Sumerian cities before giggles would finally give in.

    The situation now is there's only 2 civs remaining, I was planning on ending it on cannons and rifles but I didn't account for how difficult it would be getting the units across the map. Now Hannibal has a pretty good tech lead and has unlocked artillery and infantry and I've been running my tech slider on 0% for a very long time. I think I'm screwed but I'm going to take a shot at Hannibal and hope that I can make it up with my numbers.

    Cant lie this one is frustrating because I know I could have gotten a smooth sailing space race win if I just sat on 11 cities. Everyone was hindu and friends except india, I definitely had the best commerce potential out of all the civs and probably wouldn't have had any problems maintaining a tech lead as long as I stayed out of any wars with anyone other than india.
     
  15. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Do you have a copy of the save with 28 cuirs before you declared your first war?
     
  16. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    @bdubbs

    Spoiler :
    I wonder if you might have spread your forces too thinly in the initial attack? Difficult to tell without seeing screenies or a save to look at deployment, but 28 cuirs is a decent force that should be able to take out a large AI. Two stacks of ~14 might have got the job done.

    Did you have a supermedic (or two)? If you're not aware of that tactic, you use a Great General to give a fast-moving unit the Medic III promotion and keep it with your main stack. Invaluable in keeping the momentum of an attack going.

    Sounds like the pult stack was a problem in your first go at Giggles. They're about the only way an AI with inferior tech can put a dent in your war plans. The trick is to take the fight to them. Use spies or have a unit with Sentry (+1 visibility range) in your stack so you don't get taken by surprise. With mounted units' flanking ability they eat pults for breakfast on the attack, but the collateral from even a smallish stack can weaken your advanced units enough that swords or whatever can spoil the party. Take advantage of cuirs' mobility: park two tiles away from a city you're about to attack, because even if pults in that city can reach you via roads, the AI is unlikely to move them to attack out. Abandoning just-captured cities is also a good trick - the AI will move to retake it before attacking you in the field, so you can get in position to re-attack and maintain the initiative (this is also good in 1-mover wars where you have lots of units with CR promotions).

    I find AI really unreliable as attack dogs, even when they're your vassal and you direct them to attack a particular city. Just can't get the staff these days.

    Another point in support of Benginal's suggestion of taking Alex first is simple geography - he's closer, so it keeps your borders more manageable.

    More generally, the detail of your analysis of your game shows a good understanding of mechanics - if it hasn't happened this time, sure you'll be crushing emp soon enough!

    Good luck with the finish. Going up against inf/arty will be tough, you'll need a biiiiig numbers advantage for it to be feasible. Might have to settle for late space, or rewind a bit.
     
  17. Lazteuq

    Lazteuq Chieftain

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    I've played this up to 75AD, Immortal Normal Speed NHNE
    Spoiler :
    Hammy and Hannibal settled really aggressively around me, so I decided to rush. I invaded in 1440BC, which felt really early. Somehow, I stole 2 workers from Hannibal and pretty smoothly crushed him, since he had no spearmen yet. Then, I started building pyramids for failgold(since i had stone) and I actually got them! I think that was luck. I am about to also finish the Great Library and Parthenon, too. Basically, I ended up converting to specialist economy after accidentally getting the mids. Now, I'm at the top of the scoreboard, but I have no friends(or clear enemies). There is no dominant religion, and I can't afford another war, so the next few hundred years probably decide the game. There is no dominant religion, but there have been no AI-AI wars yet. My research rate isn't terrible and I have roughly tech parity, but can't seem to get ahead very well.
    Now, I'm not sure what to do next...
    Here is my 75 AD save if someone wants to check it out

    View attachment NC-180_75-AD_Aug-01-2016_22-59-22.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  18. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    @Metaslab missing supermedics was one of my problems, and I think you're right about stretching my army too thin and that I probably would have had more success.
    @Beningal I do have a save and I'll post it the next time I'm on my laptop

    Spoiler :
    It may have been smartest to have a small force destroy persia and then cap greece, carthage and rome first. The first reason is that they are geographically closer and I think that's an aspect of picking wars I've looked over too much. If I were to play it out again from that spot though I think it would still make sense to try and take giggles first. The main reason is that's where all my units are, and the secondary reason is he is the biggest / strongest civ and the longer I wait the harder it will be to cap him. Persia isn't far from there either which will making capping easier. I don't know if I'll play it out again
     
  19. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    Gave it one more go but I think I'm giving up on this game from the prewar save.

    Spoiler :
    Condensing into 2 stacks and sending a small force up to Persia was the right move. It delayed the attack date but It gave a couple cuirs the chance to catch up to the stack. I knew I was going to piss everyone off so I waited to declare on giggles until persia was destroyed.

    Everything was going perfectly, I comfortably took 4 cities from giggles and was 2T to taking his capital and almost definitely capping him when the AP resolution to stop fighting between brothers of faith came in as a yes. Fml I just don't even want to look at it anymore lol


    Save that you asked for is attached @Benginal it was the turn before I condensed the stacks and split some troops off to go north. Be aware I still have a city without a unit in it that I had to fix :p If you're going to go to war be fast or be ready to defy the AP resolution, or change religions right before the war.
     

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  20. nate46

    nate46 Warlord

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    @bdubbs
    Spoiler :
    I don't think flanking promotions are a good idea. This attack would have gone better if you had given your units combat promos. Also, even if flanking was a good promotion, you should never give flanking promos until you actually attack something, since they're useless for defending...

    I think this war ought to be winnable though... i mean 28 cuirs should be plenty, right??... although i'll let other people give advice, since i don't have much experience with cuir breakouts (i almost always opt for cannons.)
     

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