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NC LCXVI Suleiman of the Ottomans

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by tijup, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. tijup

    tijup Warlord

    Joined:
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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Suleiman of the Ottomans, whom we last played in NC LXX. The Ottomans start with The Wheel and Agriculture.



    Traits:
    imperialist : +100% Great General emergence. +50% faster production of settlers (from hammers only).
    philosophical : Great People birth rate increased by 100%. Double production speed of University.

    its UB is HAMMAM: an Aqueduct with +2 :). More smiley faces is never a bad thing, particularly if good resources aren't available.


    its UU is JANISSARY: a Musketman with a 25% bonus against melee, archery, and mounted units. A Gunpowder beeline means you could get to see these guys in their element, and they rule the field before other gunpowder units arrive.



    And the start:




    Spoiler map details: :

    Inland sea
    Some AIs are hand picked.
    Spoiler map edit :

    No edits.

    selected AIs:
    Shaka
    Napoleon
    Catherine



    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

    There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

    4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
    1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
    500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
    1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
    1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
    End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

    This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

    We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

    Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 73 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

    For players on Prince, you should use the Noble save, there's no techs to add nor units. Players have a slightly higher handicap, the computer a lower one.
    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians: :

    Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    Exit the worldbuilder.
    Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. tijup

    tijup Warlord

    Joined:
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    reserved for results.

    As Kjotleik noticed, we messed up our numbers.
    This thread should be NC 146, and not NC 166.
    The current title is not even correct, since that number is roman-numerically impossible.

    The correct thread number should be "NC CXLVI Suleiman of the Ottomans"
    Sorry about that.

    ***************************************************************
    Hall of fame:
    blunderwonder, Immortal, Domination win, 1695 AD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13185209&postcount=32
    nealw, monarch, normal, Domaination win, around 1850 AD.
    FlyingSwan, emperor, normal, space victory 1910ad
     
  3. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

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    Awesome! Just lost my massive campaign as Elizabeth this week after conquering or capitulating all the other civs but Ottomans who were under command of Suleiman the Magnificent (<- hopefully wrote that right). He backstabbed me in the 20th century by being far ahead in tech and captured enough cities of mine with tanks to make me surrender. This means that the leader is just perfect to my next game. Plus that I won my Gandhi win in the same mapscript and the Mehmed win with Ottomans so this is my chance to win ;)! Monarch NH/NE it shall be!!
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Tough start... Warrior can't be of much help, probably move it SE just in case it would see something awesome that could be claimed by settling south of corn. If nothing spectacular there, I'm tempted to take a chance and move settler 1N for more riverside. At least it wouldn't lose much of value.
     
  5. tijup

    tijup Warlord

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    yes, people were complaining about NC games being to easy lately, I tried to select a less easier one for once. I did'nt had time to test it before posting, but the layout seems ok. Nothing too great, nothing too bad.

    If you were planing to change your difficulty settings, that game may not be the best one for that :)
     
  6. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Cool - good to have a challenge, I think 1N is probably the way to go as well.
     
  7. Strickl3r

    Strickl3r Prince

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    Dunno if wasting a turn is worth it here, a hammer rich capitol with a couple of forests is also not that bad for inland sea to get out some stuff faster in the early game.
     
  8. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

    Joined:
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    up to 1500bc
    Spoiler :

    meh, when i saw all of the ai's i just laughed, its like war mongers vs peace ais, theres nothing but backstabbers and war mongers, and hammi lol. Shaka started plotting in 2000bc, and i can only assume hes plotting on me, so i may be forced into a restart, because that will adversely effect my game. Im going to get some defense, but its bad enough that ive lost like 3 warriors, and 4-5 axes already to barbs/animals, including a cover axeman who lost to an archer attack at 5.20% odds.

    Also, this is one of those starts that has no real commerce, the gold city will make shaka twice as likely to pick me as a target so I avoided it, and with crap commerce the game feel 10x slower. Most of the choice spots to put a beauro cap are too far away, so either i chance it and settle somewhere where its 10x distance cost for a city, or i pick some place close, and go for something like mids or oracle, which was sort of my plan once i saw inland sea and philo. I suppose could settle a spot somewhat close to the start, but it will only 4 or 5 good towns, and a few towns that will probably never mature. It seems on some of these maps where you have room for 25 crappy cities, its better to settle 5-6, and snag a nice wonder in there somewhere if possible, than try to overexpand but leave yourself open. I figure im going to settle 4 cities, chop out mids in my capital without the stone and just have every other city put out axemen and see if i can grab some barb cities with stacks of 4-5 axes, its a reasonable plan i think, because rep is going to help with the lack of happiness resources, and philo + rep is always nice too. Theres plenty of food in some places, and a serious lack in others, theres at least 2-3 nice city spots to the right of the capital, 1 good one below the capital, and 4 or 5 to the left of it, but most of those will end up taken either by a rival, or will be settled by barbs, and probably captured before i have the opportunity to get them. Another big issue i noticed early, is theres no real way to get horses, theres one to the far west, but a barb city spawned, and was basically immediately captured, maybe 5-6 turns later by cathy.

    If shaka declares on me pre 1000 bc, its going to really bug me. If i can get shaka or monty to go for eachother though, they'll probably be at war forever, because they both unit spam. this map would look ripe for elepult, but by the time i get enough catas/elephants, i probably would have lost my window to use them.

    It may still be possible though, as some of these AI's are very slow techers. If i can avoid war till 1 Ad, grab 6-7 cities, and mids. I may go for some sort of engineering rush, since i dont need or start with fishing, and its pretty likely i can get maces before shaka or monty even hit feudalism. screenshots and stuff to come when i have a bit more time.
     
  9. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    1820 BC - Prince / Marathon - NHNE

    Spoiler :

    Interesting set of AIs I have met - Shaka, Monte and Catherine hmm. Had the opportunity to steal a worker from Shaka on t67 and took it - he was going to hate me anyway so might as well slow him down! Settled 1N and quickly found Bronze in the BFC so 8 axes were whipped / chopped as well as three warriors and two Settlers. Shaka is dead - here is what was left of his Empire:-

    Spoiler For Zulu lands :


    Although have met some other AIs no sign of their cities so will probably just fill the space I have for now and look to take them out later, here's a tentative dotmap:-

    Spoiler Dot map :

     
  10. tijup

    tijup Warlord

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    Prince, NE, NH, maraton.

    up to 10 BC
    Spoiler :

    Bleh, a bit too much effective as a difficult map.
    Got hammered by barbarians and animals. Lost so much warriors and axes to them.
    Everyone DoWed on Hammy who is down to 1 city.
    We are in a Buddhist love fest, thanks to Cathy who spread it around actively.
    Hammy was Jew, Monty is Hindu.
    Cathy has too much territory, at 10 cities, Zara is taking most of Hammy territory, and is still expanding.
    I still have some room to create some on my part, but I feel that I completely lost initiative on that game. I just hooked the Iron in the SE corner, and I will start pumping some elepults to take Cathy out.

    I not sure that game is playable at immortal and up, Cathy has too much territory, as Zara has, since Hammy will get obliterated in all games AFAICS.

     
  11. caoimhin

    caoimhin Chieftain

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    Immortal-no huts, not events-up to 1400 BC

    Spoiler :
    I moved the warrior SE but settled in place. I don't see any point in wasting a turn. It'd be nice to build a settler fast to maybe get the gold spot from Shaka.

    Initial research is ah-pottery-mining-mysticism-bw.

    Initial build is worker-warrior-settler.

    I guess grabbing that gold spot was a bit unrealistic, but seeing I have Ivory, I'll probably rush him with elephants and catapults. He'd attack me sooner or later anyway. The question now is, do I go for aesthetics and try to trade alphabet and maths (and maybe horseback riding) or do I go straight for construction myself?
     
  12. Kjotleik

    Kjotleik Kjotleik

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    Hello.

    I don't know if it's just my head that's confused now or not...:confused:

    According to my calculations this should be NC 146... unless there are about twenty games that I've missed... :eek:

    The title says: "NC LCXVI Suleiman of the Ottomans," and the savefile is named "NC 166" - so I assume the title was meant to be "NC CLXVI."

    Now, this has no bearing on gameplay (of course), but if anyone (like me) likes to collect the NC-saves for future use - the numbering should be corrected. That would make it a lot easier for those of us that are looking for (but not finding?) NC 146; and looking for (and finding TWO) NC 166's.

    I have already corrected the save-file I downloaded to say NC 146 Suleiman, but others will have a hard time finding out what the number really is supposed to be a couple of years from now, I think... (unless you could be so kind as to correct the error, that is).



    Yours Sincerely
    Kjotleik of Norway :)
     
  13. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    Imm, up to 25AD
    Spoiler :

    Its been awful... Shaka started plotting on me in 1000bc, attacked later but the war lasted some 15-20 turns at least, 3-4 seperate waves of impis and swords/archers while i tried to get peace, i only lost 2-3 units to him, most of my losses were to barbs. During 2 of these attacks, barbs were spamming at me from the lower part of the map, because i couldnt fog bust while i was trying to defend my city, and build mids... I chopped out mids, and finally got him to peace, by gifting him a city. Not the one he wanted, i 2 pop whipped a settler, and set it in as bad a spot as i thought he'd take, he got the pigs, but its mostly a desert city. It also gave me +1 liberated our city bonus, which is weird, because i didnt think you got a bonus if you gave up a city for peace.

    He immediately started plotting again the turn after i got the peace treaty. But i cant remember if they can plot when theres a treaty... I hope not :p Hes finally at pleased, as me/cathy/nappy/shaka share budhism, and monty is hindu. The tech situation is horrendous because of low commerce tiles, and late libraries, and having to 0-turn whip out axes from lots of cities. I did manage to get my GS to pop, and im rebuilding my palace in a nicer spot. Few turns after i get the border pop in that far west city, cathy settles right on my border, and will probably ruin all my cottage tiles, even with palace/library/academy/monestary, she'll be able to culture me down no doubt. Im gonna hope that noone has aesthetics, finish a scout, and try to get back in the tech game here after i find the last 2 guys. I got a few nice spots but, the distance is killing me, even with 5 cities, every city is at like 6 maintanence. I switched into rep, burned a turn there because there was no way i was getting OR at the same time.

    For now im going to try to get back in the tech race, and hopefully find a way to keep shaka off me until i can cap cathy somehow. I dont have horses which means ill have to go cannons and end up with a late finish, and a low score... But this map is definetly doable. Cathy seems to have some great land, and no problem settling a dozen cities + a shrine and getting way more wonders than seems reasonable, meanwhile i dont think my economy can handle even 2 more. Id like to settle the 2 spots i pinged, because i dont know how to get that overlay map thing to work. If i can get to CS, and finish this palace, ill be able to skip courthouses with just 6 or 7 cities, and maybe get to cannons and cap cathy who worries me more than shaka even. Shakas about built all the cities he can get so ill just have to throw up walls and defenders and hes no real problem.. Its the people running away in techs that really worry me, especially since it looks like 20-30% is the best i can do with the research slider for most of this game.

    I have at least 2-3 good production cities, and 2-3 good science cities, though they took a long time to get running, and still arnt great. With rep + ivory and some trades, maybe a market in my capital, and some of his UB's, i should be able to keep happy until i can declare on someone.












     
  14. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    Looking forward to seeing some s/s's of people who played this all the way through. My position has MUCH improved at 600Ad, but who knows :( Ill post some s/s's later of my 600AD position, but i think im gonna finish i one fell swoop if possible.

    Id love to watch some replays of this one lol. I have so much trouble with expansion, not collapsing my economy, but quickly enough to not get in an awful position, which wonders to use etc. These inland seas are weird. No reloads yet, but i feel like soon, one is going to happen lol... Its difficult to keep my research/GPPs going with this map lol.
     
  15. GGS

    GGS Warlord

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    Opening appreciation. Is there, here, a rare reason to burn a turn by settling 1N? Two. More river tiles and the resource is not lost. Inland Sea maps? There is , in my experience, one chance in three you'll have a distant competitor on one flank. An early rush means you are really going after the civilization beyond the initial target.
     
  16. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

    Joined:
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    312
    Imm up to ~1100AD

    Spoiler :
    Well, no surprises this map hasnt been kind. Ive managed to take peace treates and beg 1 gold from shaka and cathy at least twice. I will definetly win lib, but i may not get steel for it, i made an error and teched guilds thinking i could use it as trade bait for engineering, only to find after getting construction that noone would trade it to me. Lol, shaka has been my best trade partner, giving me MC, and machinery trades. I may be able to get steel still, as it seems cathy has been avoiding edu, shes probably going for democracy, or scientific method. either way, if i can hold them off for the next 8 turns, i can get engineering in 2, and chemistry in 8, and i have lib up to 1 turn from finished. I also made another error thinking nationalism was a good idea, figure id chop out taj in my capital, but i finished nationalism, finish forge there a turn later, and somehow cathy finishes nationalism 2 turns after that, and has taj, 4 turns after that lol... 800hammer wonder in 4 turns lol, i was like 10 turns from finishing it and despite starting it in my best hammer city 5 turns before she even has nationalism she beat me to it. so there was a waste of a ton of hammers... I still think it was good though, because noone would have traded it to me. If i can lib steel, ill switch into theocracy/nationalism, and pump out CR2 cannons, and draft janissaries. I still probably lose, but i bet i can cap cathy/nappy before things really start to get bad. Hammis a pushover too, but at that point, ill be out of my league. Im not used to games that go past 1500Ad - and thats where im headed, a low scoring, long long game :(, i forgot to take s/s's at 600AD, but it was looking better than, i went thru 2 GA's in order to win lib.











     
  17. caoimhin

    caoimhin Chieftain

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    11
    660 AD

    Spoiler :
    Shaka declared war on me in 50 BC, as predicted. At this point I had six cities and was still trying to get to construction fast. This wasn't easy because I wasn't able to trade aesthetics around as I'd hoped. By 600 AD both Catherine and Napoleon had it, so I went without alphabet for quite a while. Instead, I bulbed maths while researching horseback riding. While researching construction, I built stables in three of my cities.

    Because I could kind of see Shaka's attack coming - he's so predictable :|, - I had archers in my border city, which were sufficient to ward off his first attack. From there it went better than expected, although the war did drag on until now. Since my research was zero I was a bit afraid I wouldn't be able to catch up technologically, but with three cities captured Shaka capitulated (Napoleon sold me feudalism) and gave me code of laws, calendar, and civil service! His capital, which is remarkably low on food, has the Great Wall and the Hanging Gardens, which is just lovely.

    Hopefully, I'll be able to buy philosophy and then bulb paper with a great scientist I saved from earlier and I'll be in the race for liberalism.

    All in all it's not looking so bad really. Catherine is friendly with me, I'm supplying half the map with ivory for cash and resources. I have to decide what the plan is from here. Maybe it's best to not pause the war and take it straight to Montezuma, and faze into a Janissary war as soon as possible.
     
  18. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    update Imm up to 1220 AD


    Spoiler :
    Won lib like i knew i would, unbelievably though, i was able to lib steel, which was crazy, but I suppose its because cathy's doing her own thing, i would have had to have taken chemistry or MT, which i dont need. But like an idiot instead of edu->lib she went after constitution -> democracy, which i guess she had awhile ago, she built statue of liberty in record time, she crazy quick on the wonders this game. She also must have teched printing press - > astronomy -> scientific method, because shes able to tech physics now. It wont save her though.

    Another error in my game, i spent 1/2 the game planning on a long drawn out thing, where i went for a sexy beauro/oxford capital. And guess what? When oxford finally finishes, i lib steel the same turn, and now im getting ready to switch into nationalism, so that i can draft jannisaries and whip cannons.... Seems like a waste no? Itll be a few turns before i actually switch but whatever... still is annoying, the universities were 1/2 price, and i had stone from shaka.

    I have like 3k-4k gold, from the 2-3 missions i ran. I forgot to retire to check out how many GPs ive had, but i know used one GS to bulb 1/2 of edu, 1 for the academy, 1 for a GA, and another gs/ge combo for a ga, and i think 2-3 GM's, and i never built NE :p so congrats to me for learning something newish, not building wonders with no marble, and plenty of GP's without having taj, maybe less than i should have had being philo, when i decided i needed to get started on lib though, most of my cities were only size 6-8 because of whipping AP religous buildings and late forges, and one of them was only size 4 so... It didnt go as well as it could have.

    I also at the last minute decided to build globe theatre as i realized that drafting is kind of going to be my game plan for the rest of the game, i could tech military science and go grens, but it seems foolish to me as i have a perfectly good UU until i can get rifles, so itll be twice as fast to whip cannons and draft jannisaries/rifles. Its going to be an annoying war with all the distance to be covered, im also considering annihilating cathy because shes been a pain to watch tech like crazy, and knowing she can be bribed on me at friendly, then when i get her to friendly she switches to free religion via the gold wonder, and she has practically every wonder and holy city. So ill get a nice stack, and a peace treaty with everyone and roll over her hopefully without get declared on, zara is at war with monty, shaka is at war with hammi, and if i can get a treaty with nappy i should be good, i havnt asked him for anything all game :p. I also agreed to go to war with hammi on request from shaka, hoping it will keep shaka from making peace with him, and give me some relation points till im ready to go for him.

    Its shaping up nicely, but thats usually when it starts to fall apart, i have plenty of forest to chop, and buddhism in all my cities so drafting muskets/whipping cannons in nationalism/theocracy should be ok to get me a reasonable stack. I have forges in almost all my cities and ill have globe theatre + buddhist temples in most. Ill trade for dye, bump up my culture slider, trade for gem/silver/gold, and make my people angry :p The good news is, if i can roll over cathy, ill have constitution/democracy/astronomy/scientific method trades available, and ill be teching to rifling myself + steel should get me most of those no problem, im no good at these late wars though, so im going right for infantry, and ill stick with cannons in the mean time, artillery is probably not going to be too necessary. I hate the size of these maps, and without cuirs its going to be even worse. its 1220 Ad, i wont attack until practically 1350 ad probably, slow as I am, and a turn or 2 for revolution, itll be 5 turns before most of them can get to the border + 10 turns to get drafted/whipped units. Game wont be over till 1800 lol... if im lucky.

    I should have started building trebs earlier, I had plenty of upgrade gold, but i used it to run research in my cities to make sure i could lib, then i kept running it to make sure i could lib a good tech, probably could have ran trebs out of my HE city with the settled general and been just as good, and could have attacked 4-5 turns earlier though :(. We'll see how it goes. I bet this game will only last 1-2 hours long than my usual 2.5-3hr games, but it feels so much longer than that.

















     
  19. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    @ blunderwonder
    Spoiler :
    You're definitely going to win, unless something crazy happens. Seems like a moderately tricky map. I avoid these larger map scripts because I am a very slow player and a game that takes someone else 3-4 hours takes me 10-12. :lol:

    On Immortal, once you get to a certain level of tech it's almost impossible to lose, so grinding out the endgame can become a predictable chore. On deity in the the same situation, the AIs suddenly get ludicrous era bonuses and leave you in the dust.
     
  20. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Don't quite understand this but I'll need to put the rest in spoilers

    Spoiler :
    You have Shaka close, apart from that a fair amount of land so Barbs will be a problem for a while. 8 axes can take out the annoying neighbour and then deal with the Barbs for you .....
     

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