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NECESSARY To-Do List After Bigger Map

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by LikeNothing, May 14, 2018.

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  1. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    I am thrilled by the bigger, newer, gorgeous map, like anyone. However, I can't help but think about all the work that MUST be done after the new map is drawn, BEFORE it becomes fully playable. So I made a To-Do List. This List should NOT include things that COULD be done after, but not NECESSITATED by, the new map, such as new Civs. This distinction is not clear-cut, but a guideline.

    The purpose here is two-fold: One, let the Community brainstorm all the necessary nuanced changes NECESSITATED by a bigger map, and to compile them in a centralized place. Two, a Call to Arms to the Community to help Leoreth with certain items in the list more suited to crowd-sourced effort.

    There are several classes of work necessitated by the new map.

    [1] Work Needed Merely Because The Map is Different

    [2] Other Work Needed Because of the Increased Number of Cities

    [3] Other Work Needed Because of Increased Terrain Realism

    [4] Other Work Needed Because of Increased Map Size
     
  2. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    [1] Work Needed Merely Because The Map is Different

    [1.0] City Name Maps (CNMs)
    A subclass where Community effort is most suitable. As everyone is familiar with different parts of the map, we can all contribute. What is needed is a standard form of submitting CNM suggestions to Leoreth in the form of CNM files (instead of verbal suggestions, which are less efficient at scale). This could be a new thread.

    [1.1] New Stability, Settler, War Maps, Flip Zones
    These are important to balance and AI, which Leoreth maintains ultimate control. There are ways to algorithmically scale the old maps onto the bigger one, but perhaps drawing from scratch is more efficient.

    [1.2] Other New (e.g. Area, Region) Python Maps
     
  3. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    [2] Other Work Needed Because of the Increased Number of Cities

    [2.0] Rebalance of Maintenance Costs: Number of Cities, Distance, Civics Costs
    A proportional rescale might work just fine here, as such costs are linear. This way, Maintenance reducing Buildings will not need much special attention.

    [2.1] Rebalance of Expansion Stability
    I suspect there will be much work required here, perhaps unforeseen new problems, because Expansion Stability is nonlinear.

    [2.2] Rebalance of Expansion-Oriented UHV Goals
    Perhaps Leoreth will get rid of the "X number of Cities in Y area" type of goals altogether, which I have always found a bit too restrictive. The less geographically restrictive goals (e.g. Rome, China, Mughals' Buildings UHVs) can be simply scaled up in numbers.

    [2.3] Rescale Between Unit, Building, and Wonder Costs
    The best way to understand this change is to think of an One City Civ like early Babylon/Phoenicia, or better still Steb's Israel. What distinguishes them from other, bigger Civs? My impression is that they build fewer Buildings and Wonders (because of fewer slots available due to fewer Cities) and hence proportionally, more Units. Now the Map is bigger, every Civ will have more Cities, and consequently build fewer Units relative to Buildings and Wonders. Perhaps a RELATIVE Cost adjustment is in order.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  4. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    It's not mine, @Steb made it.
     
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  5. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    [3] Other Work Needed Because of Increased Terrain Realism

    [3.0] Resource Rebalance Due to Decreased Density
    As the Map gets bigger, Resource Density Per BFC decreases. This is because with a bigger Map, there is more real estate and less of a desperate need to represent needed Resources in cramped areas (e.g. the Blue Banana, Coastal California, Keihanshin). This requires careful rebalancing, especially in light of Limited Resource Effects. Resource Happiness, Health, including from Buildings, must be rebalanced, and most cases increased if the current balance in DoC is to be recreated. This can affect Cultural Buildings, Civics (e.g. Monarchy), UPs (India) as well.

    [3.1] Civics, Events, etc. Rebalance Due to Increased Number of Cities with Decreased Density
    Another, related result is that though the total number of Cities will increase, their Density will also decrease like Resources do. There will be fewer, if any, super-mega-City locations like Amiens left. Sorry Youtien. This necessitates rebalance of Civics such as City States.

    [3.2] Coastal vs Non-Coastal Cities Rebalance Due to Increased Land to Coast Ratio
    With a bigger map, the ration between inland and coastal Cities will increase. This necessitates reconsideration of coastal buildings (Harbor, Lighthouse, Customs House) as well as Trade related Civics.
    In RFC's original map, most optimal City locations are coastal. This is not realistic for most of history. Perhaps the advantage of coastal location should be enhanced by a late game mechanism (such as Trade Routes bringing Food) rather than existent from the beginning of the game.

    [3.3] Other, Optional Considerations
    Do Hills really improve Production in real life? Are most industrial centers of the world (pre-Coal) located near Hills?
     
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  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, I have been long term curating a document that outlines all the necessary changes for the new map and their dependencies on each other, as well as which parts have to be done by me and which can be part of a community effort. For context, my goal for 1.16 is to get the new map to a point where people can start contributing to what you have labeled phase 1.

    I will post a new feature development thread with a corresponding git branch like I have done for the Turks and Limited Resources features, except that this will more heavily involve contributions. As part of the thread, I will document how the elements where contributions are needed work (some will have been changed by then) and what my guidelines for them are. The reason why I am not uploading the branch while I am currently working on it is because I want to avoid people contributing too early, when there are still more fundamental changes to be made. That would lead to suggestions becoming out of date and harder to reintegrate into the final result.
     
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  7. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    [4] Other Work Needed Because of Increased Map Size

    [4.0] Increase of Unit Movement Speeds
    This is assuming the overall game speed (Normal, Epic, Marathon) does not change. Without this, the game will be slower and less exciting than before.

    [4.1] Increase Auto-Spawn of Roads
    This supplements [4.0]. A bigger map with more tiles allows for and necessitates more auto-spawn of Roads, especially in the earlier Eras, for example along the Silk Road and Mediterranean Coast.

    [4.2] City Culture Expands Beyond the Third Ring
    Perhaps to the fourth or even fifth ring? This will make Culture more relevant again. This is correlated with not just a bigger map, but also the decreased City density mentioned above in [3.1]. I don't miss Cultural Bombs at all though. They are silly.

    [4.3] Embassies?
    Scout units are more likely to die along the road now, possible Movement Speed increase notwithstanding. Perhaps Embassies should return.
     
  8. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

    Such a project requires both great patience and great motivation and discipline in the manager, qualities rarely seen together. Not to mention, the sustained enthusiasm of loyal subjects in a relatively small realm. One is reminded of the Kings in Prussia.
     
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  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Kind of early feedback on some of these questions although my thoughts are by no means set in stone:

    3.2) I don't see much concern here. Coastal locations were already strong and even if they are slightly less useful they are still preferable.

    3.3) I don't think there's much we can do to change this paradigm in Civ4.

    4.0) I am actually considering extending the game timeline somewhat (around 20% more turns?) mostly to benefit the early game.

    4.1) I don't really like that as a solution. Terrain types will somewhat address this problem, e.g. additional movement of mounted units in Steppe terrain.

    4.2) The gradual culture expansion rules require storing culture invested into each possible tile for every city. Limiting it to three rings was as much an implementation concern as it was a gameplay decision.

    4.3) I have some plans for that, but overall I think the map could work without it.
     
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  10. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    My concern is that they are too preferable on the new map, at least before the Modern Era. The absolute advantage of coast is the same on the new map as the old, but such an advantage will be concentrated in a smaller proportion of Cities, as a result of the map being bigger.

    Put it differently: in RFC & DoC's current maps, the vast majority of Cities are coastal. In the new map, this will change, and there will be a resulting shift in balance. For example, if coasts are too weak, Civs like England and Japan will be weaker than before relative to other Civs (like France or China); if coasts are too strong, they will be stronger.

    In the Modern Era in our reality there is a great shift of population from inland to coastal. Perhaps there should be a specific mechanism that reflects this, such as Trade Route bringing food after a late Tech. Seafood Corporation is already such a mechanism - it may or may not be enough.

    But we can change our Map, much like how KeSPA "rebalanced" StarCraft using Maps rather than Unit changes.

    For example, certain Hills can be changed into Grassland with Production Resources (Stone, Iron, Copper, perhaps a new one like Timber), and vice versa, to further enhance realism and gameplay.

    DoC is the most fast-paced of all RFC mods, as in there are more things to do per turn, and I usually play on Epic. I consider that a great advantage, rather than a drawback.

    On the other hand, the early game of DoC is the best strategy game that simulates the Ancient Era I have seen. More turns can allow for more interesting scenarios, e.g. with more Indie City spawns.

    Wonderful! There could also be a River bonus, e.g.:
    [Modmod]Dawn of Knoedel - Comprehensive Rebalance Project

    Of course. The implementation cost will be even higher with this many more Cities.

    I think the drawback of limiting to three rings (ugly, unrealistic borders mostly) can be largely mitigated by adjusting the Map's resources, as well as Stability & Settler maps.

    Alternatively you can just adjust the diplo contact code. Instead of requiring direct contact, allow second order connections - I have diplo contact with all the Civs that have direct contact with a Civ I have direct contact with.
     
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  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I just think this distinction is too baked in to how the whole Civ4 economy is conceived and what ideas like production abstract. In most cases the current rules provide desirable enough outcome so there is no reason to turn everything on its head.

    Yeah that idea is a staple of the civ series after all.
     
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  12. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    [1.0] I've already started on it. Although it looks like after Leoreth's recent adjustments it may need a lot of readjusting too. I'll post a link to it maybe early next month.

    [1.1] Did some work on this too, but this also needs adjustments afaik.

    [1.2] Bautos42 already made a preliminary version of it, posted in the big map thread. We just need to revise it. :)

    [2.0, 2.1] I totally agree with this one.

    [3.0, 3.1] I don't totally agree with this. Some areas may have decreased city density such as China and Russia, but many areas (esp. Europe) will still have high city densities, as more historically appropriate cities can be built on the map. For instance, the current map now allows Prague without choking Vienna and Berlin. It also allows for an additional city in Anatolia (Izmir, perhaps?), and more cities in Persia (Esfahan, Tehran, Shiraz, Herat, Tabriz evenly spaced) and Transoxiana (Bukhara, Samarkand, Urganj, Marv). I still believe there should be adequate resources (and resource density) to encourage the founding of historical cities.

    [4.0, 4.1] Random suggestion: Extend the timeline to 4000 BC - 2050 AD (or 2100 AD)? I haven't checked out the new calendar in Bits of Tales yet but maybe we can refer to that?

    However, even when extending the timeline and/or increasing the total number of turns, unit movement still does not feel balanced, especially on the bigger map. A possible effect I can think of is that Russia will have more difficulty accomplishing the Siberia UHV by the two deadlines, especially the 7-city goal (1700 AD) since it takes a longer time (both in turns and in years) for settlers to reach their destinations. Maybe adding 1-2 movement points to all units would suffice?
     
  13. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I really like the idea of a specific tech unlocking Food from Foreign Trade Routes. Though I would say that Food should always be a thing from Domestic Routes.
     

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