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Need comment on my current game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Barbuesque, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Barbuesque

    Barbuesque Chieftain

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    I just recently started playing RFC. Great mod, much more chaotic and unpredictable than vanilla BTS, and I view this as a positive thing.

    This is my 3rd game, and I am trying domination as greece. Reading various posts, I'm not sure this is possible as the mod doesn't seem to be designed around winning this way, but I can't help playing this way and trying, and I really like the greek start and position.

    I attached the save. As you can see, I am about to collapse. I'm looking for input on how I could have achieved the same expansion but with much better stability.

    I also have several specific questions:

    1) My economic rating is really low. I don't really understand why, as my GNP as been steadily progressing

    2) I got hit by a great depression. Reading the stability guide, this is due to too many hammers vs GNP. However my gnp was of 1600 at the time vs hammers in the low 200 so there's something I am not understanding here.

    3)My expansion meter is very low as well. Is it because I am expanding into red stability areas?

    4) Razing: I read that that razing cities lowers your stability. How harsh is the penalty? The problem is with the 2 tiles between cities rules, the AI tends to have a very large amount of 100% junk cities. Should I gift them instead? Will it lower my stability?

    4b) What about disbanding the cities when they culture flip? Do I get a penalty as well?

    5) Resurrecting civs: In my 2nd game Arabia resurrected as soon as I went into unstable. But now I've been in the unstable or collapsing range for several turns, and none of the civs I'm currently occupying resurrected yet, and I'm controlling like 6 starting areas of dead civs.

    6) What's the meaning of "maximum territorial expansion" in the stability guide? Is it a number of cities, or going beyond the green/yellow areas?

    7) Meaning of occupied territory: Is it from culture % or is it just having cities in "red" stability areas even if they are 100% greek?

    8) Stability map: Does it influence stability from the city sites only, or also for the controlled tiles? Example: A greekcity in the middle of the balkans, founded on a yellow stability tile, can extend into "red" areas to the north. What'S generating stability for this city, the city tiles or all the worked tiles?


    Thanks in advance for the answers!
     

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  2. DylanAraki

    DylanAraki Chieftain

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  3. Gem Hound

    Gem Hound Mercenary

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    Try not to expand into other civs core areas if you can during your initial expansion. Italy and Most of Europe are off-limits during that time due to this. Another good plan is to adopt totalitarian civics. They give a +10 stability bonus when combined.

    Reason: You get a stability penalty for a city in a red zone and it would flip when another civ spawned.

    That is very nice though for a first play. :)

    The Stability maps are attached. ((thankyou alpav))
    Red = Foreign Core - Also a bad place to settle unless you can handle it
    Orange = Foreign Area - Not as bad as a Foreign Core
    Yellow = Neutral
    Light Green = Historical Area - Good general area to settle
    Dark Green = Core Territory - Keep this territory at all costs. Other nations in this territory cause a negative stability hit.
    Influences only by city site as far as I know.
     

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  4. Barbuesque

    Barbuesque Chieftain

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    Thanks!

    So too bad for that Kiev city spot I guess?

    The Conquistador event is also pretty useless for Greece as I would conquer red stability territory.
     
  5. Gem Hound

    Gem Hound Mercenary

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    It is still useful. Free units. Also gives you a chance to get some free vassals. ((I play by avoiding Red but you don't have too)) That is for Ancient Civs as they have harsher penalties. Look at the Inca map. I had South and Central America under my control and was Very Solid in stability.

    I actually looked at your game and other than what I told you, the only other thing would be to build that Summer Palace if possible. If you collapse, you will only have your capital left and will have to reconquer the thing. :) ((Unless you try my early trick from before I learnt how to influence stability - Move all units to your capital or just outside of the cities((second way will have some go independent)) and then reconquer your Empire. I played a game once a bit back that I managed to collapse over 5 times in the same game. :)))
     
  6. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Didn't look at the game, but England is a good civ to try for your first domination as it has a whole lot of historical areas. But if you want to invade then try Germany, in my last UHV game I was just 5% land away from domination.
     
  7. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    OK, here are your answers,
    1.Switch to commonwealth
    2.I dunno, have never suffered it before.
    3.Yes, if you are conquering wait for occupation.
    4.Razing-the lower the no. of cities you have, the harsher the penalty, the same with gifting and liberating. Although after you have 25cities you get a stability bonus for gifting/liberating.
    b.Never tried it.
    5.Civs can resurrect only if your stability is shaky or less
    6.The former
    7.The latter
    8.The former
     
  8. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    Sorry but I can't open your savegame, I get a runtime error each time I try to open it. Are you using v3.19 of BTS and v1.187 of the RFC mod?

    One way to improve your economic rating is by trading with other civs. Opening up trade routes by getting more open borders agreements will also help here. The best way to improve your economic rating though is to build cottages. Their slow growth will ensure that your gross commerce is on a slow and steady improve, which is largely what is checked for in the economic stability category.

    GNP isn't the big deal here. Every three turns, the commerce output of your civ is compared to your previous (3 turns prior) commerce output. If you are doing better than you were, you get a bonus in the economic stability category. If you are doing worse, penalty in the economic stability category. This is basically what economic stability is all about. It should actually be the easiest category to excel in, stability-wise. Some of the other categories are much harder to keep in positive territory.

    You can avoid Great Depression by not adopting Free Market. But once you are in a Great Depression, switching out of Free Market won't actually solve your current Great Depression. My tip would be to avoid ever adopting Free Market in RFC.

    As above, some categories are pretty hard to keep in positive territory. Expansion is one of those. If you keep to your civ's historical area, you will be fine here. But if you are trying for Domination that is mutually exclusive. The key is to get (and keep) your other stability categories into positive territory to balance with a negative expansion stability rating, if you are going for a Domination victory.

    And yes, red stability areas are quite bad. They represent tiles that are part of another civ's core area and attract the maximum expansion stability penalty (on a per tile basis).

    Yep, razing is bad for your PERMANENT stability. That's a form of stability that isn't directly reflected in any of the 5 categories. It's more basic than that and is affected by things like how many cities you have razed, how many times you have moved your capital, how many turns of anarchy you've been through, those sort of things. Raze less, wherever possible.

    Nope. It's a far better way to eliminate 'junk' cities than razing.

    The chance of a civ respawning (that is the correct term here) is checked when a new civ is born (AFAIK). I think after a certain era, it is checked on a regular basis also, but this is a late-game thing. So if a new civ hasn't spawned for a while, you might be OK. The American spawn almost always triggers a respawn for instance.

    The first 32 tiles that you control outside of your capital tile do not trigger any stability penalties whatsoever. Beyond those 32 tiles, there is a ramped up scale at which additional tiles attract stability penalties.

    If your cultural borders enclose a tile, you own that tile and it counts for stability considerations.

    All tiles, not just the one with cities on them, are important here. Water tiles have no effect whatsoever though.
     
  9. Barbuesque

    Barbuesque Chieftain

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    Thanks for the replies Akbar and blizzrd!

    Yeah I realized yesterday I didn't patch the mod. I tried another game today and it went much, much better, essentially from the economic meter.

    I'm getting different answers about the impact of BFC tiles on stability?


    Up to 14 cities now, stretching from southern spain to Babylon, all on green/yellow tiles, and still stable. The 1300 plague dipped me into shaky for a turn, but that was it.

    So at this point I should get 11 more cities, then liberate the extras?

    What about a transition to democratic civics? Will it eventually boost my stability?

    Save attached
     

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  10. Gem Hound

    Gem Hound Mercenary

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    Totalitarian Civics are actually more stable than Democratic ones. Put State Property and Police State together to get the best stability bonus from Civics. Occupation is necessary when conquering cities, resettlement if you are only colonizing empty areas.
     
  11. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    I don't agree with all of Akbarthegreat's answers to your questions, some of his answers regarding stability were factually incorrect.

    The timing of any push towards Domination should be considered carefully. Once you get above 10 cities, each city beyond the 10th has a negative impact on your research rate - it's barely noticeable at first but gets more noticeable for every additional city that you control above 10. So if you want to start getting larger, you would want to have already researched all the military techs that you were planning to use in your expansion push.

    Unlikely. If you are going to be at war with a bunch of other civs, you will be far better placed stability-wse adopting the warring civics (Nationalism and Occupation in particular, State Property is good too). These have synergies between themselves and once adopted you actually get more stability for having active wars with multiple civs!
     
  12. Barbuesque

    Barbuesque Chieftain

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    Thanks!

    I kept playing before reading your answer and tried a transition to democracy and a continuous expansion. Made it to within 3% of the land domination target before everything went to hell. Stability, obviously, wasn't good at all :)

    Reading giving cities past 25 - do they have to be "liberated" or can they be given to a free civ, like say siberian cities to arabia, to get the stability bonus? Because from casual observation, only liberating seemed to increase stability.

    So your advice is - get 10 cities, get the necessary military techs, switch to police state, communism, and expansion then get rolling?
     
  13. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    I believe either will do the same thing.

    But there are two things at play here. When you liberate/give away cities, your economic output decreases and you likely take an economic stability hit and a hit to your cities category too. Then there is the bonus for releasing cities, which is scaled based on the number of other cities you have at the time and also I think on the number of cities that have given away recently (the more the better).

    i.e. Liberating 3 cities at the same time (or at least on the same turn) will give you a bigger overall effect than liberating 3 cities one at a time over a number of different turns.

    But when just going for Domination (as opposed to Conquest, which is significantly harder), you probably don't need to liberate any cities at all, providing you also make careful use of the culture slider and adopt the totalitarian civics.

    More or less. I'd add to that to say get 10 good PRODUCTION cities and then get rolling. There is a group of 3 cities in North America (Denver-New Orleans-Chicago) which are awesome for production and can really help your Domination cause -- even if they are your 11th 12th and 13th cities -- I would still recommend going for them.
     
  14. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    I stand corrected for the last 3 questions;). Sorry for any inconvenience.:p

    I usually get respawns only in the 19th century onwards.

    PS+State property+Nationhood+Occupation.
    With Nationhood you can just declare war on faraway civs who pose no threat to you for the extra stability.
    And finally if you havent seen it already:The strategy guide.
    You can get the civic combo bonuses and everything else there.

    And blizzrd, I was thinking of trying for a conquest, so which civ should I try first? Will Germany be good?
     
  15. corovanrobber

    corovanrobber Chieftain

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    Do it as Mali, that'd be heroic.
     
  16. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    France is probably the easiest, because you can settle some of the key American cities without any major stability penalties.
     
  17. corovanrobber

    corovanrobber Chieftain

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    Everyone has to start somewhere I suppose. My first try was Babylon, I unfortunately learned that I must eradicate all the independents too.
     
  18. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Mali- wait till you have MBA's and nukes(everyone else cannot get any more advanced). Then conquer. Till then just take Egypt and carthage. But this is just theoretical, I have no idea how you can do it practically. Maybe AP, Blizzrd or Tlonnite could show us (even on viceroy).
     
  19. Barbuesque

    Barbuesque Chieftain

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    Coming back on this, let's take the Greeks as an example:

    If I want to stick to green or yellow tiles, I can have only 5 cities:

    Athens
    Babylon
    Alexandria
    Persepolis
    Jerusalem (arabian culture will limit the expansion into red tiles) - though the site sucks unless it ends up a double holy city.

    With limited amounts of red tiles:

    Byzantion
    1 city in Turkey

    So if I want to reach 10 cities, I will have to expand into mostly red stability tiles. Might as well get good sites right?

    Salona (balkans), Thebes, Kiev after russian spawn, Rome when Rome collapses (seems to get crushed by barbarians as soon as I build the great wall) - these 4 are easy.

    And after: New Orleans, Denver, Chicago, Buenos Aires? Anything better? Worth going to cities # 12 to 15 and take a research hit to get the good production sites?

    Situational question for Greece: Babylon often has archers when the greeks spawn (monarch difficulty), making an early rush impossible. Without being able to control Babylon from the start, a lot of trash cities will be soon be all over the place in the region (at least 4-5). Should I still invade and raze the extra cities to grab the coveted region, or forget Babylon and Persepolis and go for juicy, but red stability areas to get my 10 cities?
     
  20. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    I would suggest you only go for Athens and Babylon from this list. Alexandria and Persepolis not worth it, Jerusalem definitely not worth it.

    Is good, should indeed be one of your first 10 cities.

    The other cities should really just be the best ones of civs that you destroy along the way to Domination. I would aim for at least Rome, Budapest and Lisbon (very useful for controlling the Atlantic) to go with Athens, Byzantion and Babylon. Then go for 4 cities in America to round out the first 10. The ones you suggested are fine choices.

    If Babylon already has archers on your spawn, I'd suggest just roll up a new start. More often it does not have archers than does, in my experience.
     

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