Need guide for Isabella of Spain

[Iwo Jima]

Playing Emperor, Terra. Can't find suitable approach to have a good game with Isabella.

Some questions
1) Research: early religion or early development?
2) Discover one religion or maximum of possible?
3) How long is possible to stick to Citadels and ignore Economics?
4) How get Conqistadors asap? Are they really useful if you get them in proper time?

NEW:
5) Isa has a good chance to get early Oracle. But what is the best tech to open?
6) Is it possible to have good later game without Economics (so, without Infantry and Factories)?
7) What is the good tips and combos for using Isa traits (Spiritual and Expansive)?


Some tips and thoughts are welcome (but, please, don't give general advice, only for Isabella of Spain)

COLLECTED TIPS:
1) Beeline to Liberalism, open Mil Tradition and get Conqistadors (with Gunpowder)
2) Beeline to Engineering and get 10xp Trebuchets. Trying to bulb Metal Casting or Machinery.
3) Spiritual trait --> some diplopoints for giving in to ceirtain demands and then switch back after four turns
4) begging trick. If your neighbor in another religion is plotting war, change religion to get him up to pleased and beg for a few gold. This will result in a 10 turn unbreakable peace treaty, which gives you more time to prepare in case you were his target.
5) Conquistador Rush - Isabella has a big profit from usual Cuirassier Rush strategy
6) Combo: Sticking Citadels are well suited for espionage economy and espionage diplomacy, which benefited from SPI trait (low cost of missions, easy mess of opponents civics)


Moderator Action: Moved to Strategy and Tips forum as you should get assistance there. Good Luck!

 

[elitetroops]

Conquistadors are awesome, forget the rest of the points on your list of question and focus on them. The standard beeline for liberalism->Military Tradition will get you the conqs early enough to conquer a lot on emperor. Same works with cuirs for any leader, though conquistadors are obviously even stronger.

Focus on the upper part of the tech tree, trade for the lower part of the tech tree. Don't trade away philosophy or education to make sure nobody else beats you to lib. Build a library in capital and run scientists early for an academy. First tech target is often Civil Service for bureau, then lit for Great library and even more scientist points. Later great scientists can be used to bulb philosophy or partly bulb education (or double bulb edu if you get a lot of scientists).

Citadels are unfortunately rather useless, especially as they have no synergy with your UU. Mounted wars don't use siege.

Any more specific advice would have to be for the particular map you are playing. The leader shouldn't matter nearly as much as the map when you decide how to play.

 

[nate45]

Early religions are a waste of time, you should always favor early development. The only time you'd get an early religion is if you want to make a beeline for oracle and just happen to get the religion along the way. But you should always favor economic techs first--you need to go worker first and you need enough techs to keep your worker developing your best tiles full time. Although if you have a lot of farmable squares and nothing else to develop, i guess you could go agriculture --> polytheism or something and maybe get the religion, but even if you get the religion its a waste of tech unless you plan to build oracle later.

 

[lymond]

Good advice from Elite. Based on your questions, Iwo, you probably really need to rethink how you play the game in general.

Ignore religions. Focus on food, worker management, expansions, economy and research. Bulb your way to a Lib of MT and go stomp the world with Conks, one of the top UUs in the game.

 

[Iwo Jima]

Conquistadors are awesome, forget the rest of the points on your list of question and focus on them. The standard beeline for liberalism->Military Tradition will get you the conqs early enough to conquer a lot on emperor. Same works with cuirs for any leader, though conquistadors are obviously even stronger.

Can't understand. If I want fast Mil Tradition, what for I research Edu and Lib? I'd better research Mil Tr instead. (Music + Nationalism)

Early religions are a waste of time, you should always favor early development. The only time you'd get an early religion is if you want to make a beeline for oracle and just happen to get the religion along the way. But you should always favor economic techs first--you need to go worker first and you need enough techs to keep your worker developing your best tiles full time. Although if you have a lot of farmable squares and nothing else to develop, i guess you could go agriculture --> polytheism or something and maybe get the religion, but even if you get the religion its a waste of tech unless you plan to build oracle later.

What is the reason for Isa to build an Oracle? With fast religious path, she could open only another religion or Monarchy. Do you mean that?

 

[lymond]

Can't understand. If I want fast Mil Tradition, what for I research Edu and Lib? I'd better research Mil Tr instead. (Music + Nationalism)

Because you can bulb a lot of techs including Lib.

Not sure what level you are playing currently. Early religions are pretty much out of the question anyway on higher levels, and Oracle riskier play, although still nice if you can get it.

 

[Gwynnja]

An alternative to conquistadors is citadel/treb domination. Oracle Metal Casting, or Machinery if you've got the start for it and beeline Engineering. Unfortunately Izzy starts with fishin so you can't bulb your way there, but if you've got a good enough economic base you should be able to get there in the early A.D.s Pretty sure economics only obsoletes the protective bonuses of the citadel so that if you choose to continue on to steel or even artillery you're still getting that 5xp out of the gates, and 10 (CR3) with a barracks and theocracy/vassalage.

 

[elitetroops]

Can't understand. If I want fast Mil Tradition, what for I research Edu and Lib? I'd better research Mil Tr instead. (Music + Nationalism)

You need edu for Gunpowder.

 

[FlyingSwan]

The only reason to delay economics is if your running espionage economy.Citadels are expensive buildings without stone so I tend to build only 1 or 2,in your heroic epic city idealy.A b-line to engineering can work well,those 3 promotion trebuchets are pretty unstoppable.Its possible to oracle machinery at emporer level with a good start.The good thing about playing Isabella is your not playing against her-she tends to build the oracle very early-turn 60ish,if you can get the oracle for about turn 70 you should be ok.

One option here,which ive only just thought of,could be to whip in a forge and run a scientist and engineer in your oracle city,this will get you a great person quick.If a scientist drops-build the academy,an engineer-part bulb engineering,a prophet-bulb theology.(your going to want to run vassalage or theocracy to get those 10xp trebuchets).Think I might try this myself later.

Your other option,as outlined by elite troops is the conquitadors route.The reason you want to go via liberalism is you need gunpowder which comes after education,Libbing military tradition will save you turns because it costs less beakers.

Conquisadors rock btw.The fact they receive defensive bonus and +50% against melee units means they easily stand up to pikes,and if your on a hill or in a forest will have good odds against attacking elephants.These are the cuirissars only counter,and with Isabella you can take them both on.Also now you can use the conquisadors as city garrison units so your army wont get slowed down waiting for 1 move garrison units,longbows or muskets.

 

[nate45]

What is the reason for Isa to build an Oracle? With fast religious path, she could open only another religion or Monarchy. Do you mean that?

dunno, any number of reasons. Maybe she has marble and wants to run a wonder spam start.

Priesthood is a pre-req for writing, could go writing then oracle alphabet then trade writing for all other early techs. or maybe aesthetics if you want to build more marble wonders.

or she could do bronze working and take metal casing for free, then shoot for an engineering rush. Engi rush wouldn't be too bad on isabella, cause of her unique buliding, her trebs would get a bunch of bonus xp... although she'd probably need stone too for that to be worth it. I dunno.

My point wasn't that you ought to be building oracle though, it's just that if you aren't planning to oracle for whatever reason, you've got no business teching polytheism.

 

[Major Tom]

I am currently running an emperor game with her. An early axerush against nearest neighbour secured early development and buddism holy city from him. Now I am four turns away from Conqs and looking forward to take out rest of continent. Got Oracle and won Lib race along the way thanks to early dev and tech trades (some free due to the efforts of that early war). My 2 cents for 1&2. Number 3: Priority for me is military techs. Have a couple of citadels for handy CR3 trebs/cannons. Dont need economics (at this stage) since there already is a nice income from IC traderoutes ( popped astro from lib and traded in nationalism).
Number 4 is well answered by others here.

PS: Dont forget her spiritual trait. No anarchy for switching from building era to arms buildup. Can also get diplopoints for giving in to ceirtain demands and then switch back after four turns.

 

[Iwo Jima]

thanks for the answers

I'll write short summarizing in topic post. And some new questions.

Keep going)

 

[elitetroops]

NEW:
5) Isa has a good chance to get early Oracle. But what is the best tech to open?

This depends on many factors. In general you want to have a clear tech goal for your early game and if you get the oracle, then you try to get the best possible tech on the path to that goal. What tech to get depends on how long you can delay it. On a large map with a lot of opponents, it can go pretty early and you don't have time to wait that long. On a smaller map you can often meet all other AI in time and with alpha you can see if any of them has priesthood already. As long as nobody has it, you can still wait a bit.

For the liberalism beeline Civil Service is usually the strongest tech you can hope for on emperor, though oracling that is hard and requires a really strong commerce start, combined with some luck. CoL is a safer choice that you should be able to get quite consistently.

If you go for the engineering rush, then Machinery would be really strong, but again requires a strong commerce start and some luck. Metal Casting is the safer bet which you should be able to get about always.

6) Is it possible to have good later game without Economics (so, without Infantry and Factories)?

With Isabella it's possible to conquer the entire map with conquistadors and maybe some cavalry. If you go the engineering route, then you can get even artillery without economics. CR3 artillery will obliterate anything you put in front of them. Once your artillery has done it's job, you don't need infantry to mop up, any unit will do.

7) What is the good tips and combos for using Isa traits (Spiritual and Expansive)?

SPI is very strong, but not the easiest trait to utilize efficiently. To get the most out of it, you should study your enemies in this article. As you can see they all have different diplomatic thresholds for when they agree to certain actions. Let's say for example that you plan to go to war with your neighbour and would hope to get some help from Mehmed who is behind your target. Mehmed is annoyed with you because you are in different religions. If you look at his details, you can see that he can be bribed to war against AI at cautious, so all you need to do is make a quick temporary switch into his religion to boost relations and now you can get him to join you. Be aware though that changing religions will also have a temporary negative effect on all your relations with AI in your current religion. This is why it might get quite tricky.

Another common trick is the begging trick. If your neighbor in another religion is plotting war, change religion to get him up to pleased and beg for a few gold. This will result in a 10 turn unbreakable peace treaty, which gives you more time to prepare in case you were his target.

EXP is a solid all-round trait. Quick start with fast workers and granaries and some health bonus, which might come in handy depending on the map. How to leverage this trait depends on your start and surrounding lands.

 

[Iwo Jima]

This depends on many factors. In general you want to have a clear tech goal for your early game and if you get the oracle, then you try to get the best possible tech on the path to that goal. What tech to get depends on how long you can delay it. On a large map with a lot of opponents, it can go pretty early and you don't have time to wait that long. On a smaller map you can often meet all other AI in time and with alpha you can see if any of them has priesthood already. As long as nobody has it, you can still wait a bit.

For the liberalism beeline Civil Service is usually the strongest tech you can hope for on emperor, though oracling that is hard and requires a really strong commerce start, combined with some luck. CoL is a safer choice that you should be able to get quite consistently.

If you go for the engineering rush, then Machinery would be really strong, but again requires a strong commerce start and some luck. Metal Casting is the safer bet which you should be able to get about always.

My usual games - Emperor, Terra, Standart

I believe, that real high chance to get Oracle for Isa is beeline to Pristhood and building Oracle asap. So, after researching Oracle you have a time for one tech. Maybe, you could research one-two resource techs (mining, agriculture,...) before Pristhood for fast development. You could also be lucky and find one free tech in huts.

So, Oracling Metal Casting (you need Mining, Bronze W, Wheel and Pottery) is doubtful. Moreover Machinery.
Oracling Civil Service is very risky and long way. You need ignore resource techs and beeline to CoL. Chances are very low. And even if you get it, you have Bureaucracy and zero land improvements. (or maybe some fishermen boats). Not sure, its a good variant.


So, I have some more solid variants, but cant build a strong total strategy with them.

1) CoL with Confucianism seems like a second prise if you didn't get Buddism. (I think, Isa wins Buddism race only in 30-50% games on Emperor, usually with coast start). So, more easy choice go to Hinduism and if you fail, go to Monotheism.

2) Alphabet - good choice, allowing to combine early religion with obtaining some resource techs.

3) Aesthetics - interesting choice, but not clear. The most solid reason is to go GLibrary(with marble) or building Shwedagon Paya (with gold inside borders)

4) Monarchy - good, but you really dont need it so soon, because you dont need high happiness cap until you stop spamming settlers and workers.

5) Theology (not beelining to Pristhood, but fast enough) - to have 1, 2 or even 3 religions, building ApPalace for religious play and HSophia for cheap and fast workers. But you also could easy bulb Theology with GPriest (Oracle + 1-2 priests in a city), so the reason is under question

 

[Iwo Jima]

EXP is a solid all-round trait. Quick start with fast workers and granaries and some health bonus, which might come in handy depending on the map. How to leverage this trait depends on your start and surrounding lands.

EXP is a good trait, but if you try use it in the start, you should forget religion path and lose some bonuses of you second trait (SPI).

 

[Ghpstage]

Regardless of expansive you should drop the religion founding starts, the drawbacks and risks of chasing early religions far outweigh the advantages.

Spiritual doesn't need religion to be very useful, and doesn't benefit at all from you founding the religion yourself.

Hagia Sophia isn't a wonder I would consider being worth even looking at.

Oracle can be got after the basic worker techs much of the time. Its actually quite probable that beelining Priesthood and building it without worker techs would be slower, as you won't have improvements to give you the economic capacity to build it at a reasonable speed and wouldn't be able to chop.
At Emperor its easily possible to Oracle Metal Casting. Construction and Currency are popular choices too.
CoL is my most common choice, but not for Confucianism, more for trade value and the techs it opens up.

 

[elitetroops]

You are overvaluing religions. On emperor and higher you don't benefit that much for founding them, because you don't have time to spread them and you don't want to waste a Great person on building a shrine. Let your neighbors found the religions, spread them and build shrines, then you conquer the shrines.

Heading straight for oracle is not necessary. If you do that to get alpha, then you use minimum 140 beakers (Med+PH) and 150 hammers to get a 300 beaker tech. Not a very big gain. Try instead to start with worker techs, then alpha, trade for Med or Poly, research Priesthood and oracle CoL (or Currency, which might be another good choice). If your start has at least some commerce, this usually works on emperor.

Aesthetics is most useful as tradebait on higher levels. Most AI don't research it early and you can research it yourself early to trade for Alpha, IW and other backfill techs. On emperor it's a bit dubious to use that strategy, because the AI can be painfully slow to Alpha.

Monarchy you can almost always trade for later, using Oracle for that is mostly a waste imo.

Theology can be very strong tradebait also, or it can be useful if you are planning to go for an early religious victory. The main problem with Theo is that it is not on the way to any of your tech targets if you are aiming for military action. Sometimes if the tech pace is really fast, then Theo can give you a lot of techs in trade. But as you said, it can be grabbed later if you pop a GPriest from the oracle.

EXP is a good trait that you always use in the start, because a worker should be your first build almost always. And the cheap granaries you also want up in your cities asap in just about every game. Not sure why you would think it interferes with the possibility to pursue any other path.

Btw. If you really want to hear specific opinions for the game you are playing, post the starting save (before doing any moves) and you might be surprised to see what people manage to do with it.

 

[elitetroops]

Oracling Civil Service is very risky and long way. You need ignore resource techs and beeline to CoL. Chances are very low. And even if you get it, you have Bureaucracy and zero land improvements. (or maybe some fishermen boats). Not sure, its a good variant.

Yeah, this is the part that you got wrong. ALWAYS worker techs first! Without them you have absolutely no chance of oracling anything remotely useful. Which worker techs are needed depends on the start, but at the very least you need to improve your available food resources as soon as possible.

 

[Ghpstage]

Some tips and thoughts are welcome (but, please, don't give general advice, only for Isabella of Spain)

From this, and a lot of comments so far I think that you have fallen into a trap of overestimating the differences between the leaders.
For the most part the strategies good for one leader in a given situation will not differ greatly than for any other leader. The traits, starting techs and uniques for the most part only serve to weight the existing options and open up a few tricks.
They don't generally have the power to make suboptimal strategies, like early religion founding competitive with the standard economic openings.

 

[Iwo Jima]

Yeah, this is the part that you got wrong. ALWAYS worker techs first! Without them you have absolutely no chance of oracling anything remotely useful. Which worker techs are needed depends on the start, but at the very least you need to improve your available food resources as soon as possible.

If you research worker techs, you absolutely miss Civil Service. Even if you build Oracle in time, you'll have no time for researching CoL. Or, if you waiting to complete Oracle until CoL, you have a very high risk that Oracle will be completed by another civ.